In this episode of Unpacked by Afar, host Aislyn Greene chats with tombstone tourism afficionado and travel journalist, Blane Bachelor. They chat about the benefits of visiting cemeteries when you travel and highlight some of the world’s most unique (and even disappearing) graveyards and cemeteries.
Transcript
Aislyn: I am Aislyn Greene, and this is Unpacked, the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel each week. Today’s guest is Blane Bachelor, an Amsterdam-based journalist who covers travel, parenting, outdoor adventure, and much more. She also loves to visit cemeteries and graveyards when she travels, which is known as “tombstone tourism.” She wrote about it recently on Afar.com. See the show notes for a link to that story.
But despite her self-professed love for spooky stuff, this type of tourism has nothing in common with cheesy ghost tours. As you’re about to hear, visiting cemeteries can have surprisingly positive impacts on your health and your travels.
Blane, welcome to Unpacked. It’s so good to have you here today. And we are here to talk about something that listeners may be either unfamiliar with or, honestly, a little uncomfortable with. You refer to it in your story as “tombstone tourism.” So, for those who don’t know what it is, can you explain?
Blane: Of course, and thank you so much for having me. It’s a real pleasure to be here and chat with you about one of my favorite topics: Indeed, “tombstone tourism.” I didn’t coin that term. I’ve seen it out there, and it definitely is, is getting a little bit of momentum as mainstream interest in topics like haunted tourism, local legends—all things that I’m obsessed with, by the way—as those are beginning to get more, more interest, you’re seeing a little bit of crossover into tombstone tourism, which basically means travelers like me who love to go to cemeteries, explore them, graveyards, and really just take in these venues as an alternate way of seeing and experiencing a location.
Aislyn: And you made this distinction in your story that I was not aware of. So before we go on, can you tell us, What is the difference between a cemetery and a graveyard?
Blane: Of course. Yes, uh, important to get the, the terminology down right, correct? So, a cemetery generally refers to a burial ground that is nonaffiliated with a religion or a church. You can have certain [exceptions], like a Methodist cemetery, but generally speaking, it is nonreligious, a secular space.
Generally speaking, [cemeteries are] much larger as well and maybe also kind of in plots and a more organized layout. A graveyard, on the other hand, traditionally is associated with a church and therefore a particular religion. And I find that graveyards, too, also are just, generally speaking, kind of the older ones sometimes, next to a very old church.
They’re everywhere in Europe. You’ll see an old church, and you’ll just kind of see a graveyard, a jumble of tombstones and gravestones kind of next to it.
Aislyn: How did this interest arise? Like, what led to this in your life?
Blane: Well, anyone who knows me well will know that, as I mentioned before, I’ve had a lifelong interest, maybe fascination, with things that are sort of offbeat: local legends, mythology, anything haunted, anything paranormal, anything that kind of gives you a scare.
So textbook Scorpio all the way. So, there definitely is some crossover there with cemeteries, you know, like, oh, people think of a haunted cemetery and while definitely there are haunted cemeteries, which could be, you know, another whole podcast in itself.
Um, I think the aspect that I really appreciate now, as I’ve gotten older, is the historical and the cultural aspect that cemeteries and graveyards offer.
They really offer a, a different way and a much more personal way, I think, to experience a place, seeing where its citizens, its residents, the people who live there, seeing where they, where their final resting place is. That to me, it just feels like a much more personal way to experience a new destination.
You can learn a lot about a place, you know, what it likes and its culture and its food, in some respects, just from going through a cemetery.
Aislyn: And your story is so thoughtful in that way, and you share some examples of cemeteries that you’ve visited and what you have learned about the places. Would you share a couple of examples?
Blane: Of course. There’s so many to choose from. In Germany, when we had moved to Berlin, my family moved there actually from San Francisco, right at the very beginning of the pandemic, right? Two weeks before. So, uh, that’s another whole story, but luckily we were able to go outside and we didn’t have to have any permission slips or anything like that from the government.
So I used that time to, to, to just walk and, and explore, you know, this new-to-me city in Berlin. And that’s when I really began discovering these gorgeous old cemeteries, many of them hundreds of years old. Of course, you have in Berlin, you have a lot of Jewish cemeteries, which is a really interesting aspect to it.
The largest Jewish cemetery in Europe actually is in Berlin. It’s more than a 100,000 graves, it’s in a little neighborhood called Weißensee. I would actually go there for a run a lot and then kind of at the midway point of the run, you know, go for a, just a very quiet, casual, peaceful sort of stroll through the cemetery and then head back.
So the Jewish cemeteries in Berlin are really quite spectacular, that one in particular. New Orleans has, of course, its own culture just bursting right through its cemeteries. There’s St. Louis Cemetery, number one and number two, which are full of, um, you know, these above-ground crypts that are kind of quirky and funky and spooky, just like New Orleans itself.
It’s just really fascinating, I also think about Oakland cemetery. I didn’t mention this in the story, but Oakland cemetery in Atlanta is just a spectacular, beautiful cemetery that, you know, many of the dignitaries and famous people from Atlanta are buried there. I believe it goes back to the 18th century, maybe early 19th century.
And it’s a really beautiful cemetery. It’s just green grass. The skyline is not far behind. It just also feels very Southern, very grandiose, very polished. It’s just a really nice, you know, way to experience Atlanta.
Aislyn: And so how do you approach these? Do you try to visit a cemetery every time you travel?
Blane: Yes, I definitely try to visit a cemetery on every trip I take, whether that’s planned in advance.
Like, I know I’m going to, let’s say, Buenos Aires, and I want to go visit Recoleta. I definitely want to make sure that’s part of my itinerary. But sometimes it’s an organic experience where we’re staying somewhere and I see, “Oh, that’s a cool little cemetery that we passed that we, you know, on the train ride in. Let me go see if I can check that one out.”
So, it’s definitely very much a part of my travel experience now, it just depends on the trip and who I’m traveling with, how I, you know, how I kind of work that in.
Aislyn: Do you find that some people, and this is one of the questions that I wanted to ask, but do you find that some people are less comfortable visiting a cemetery or what would you say to people who feel a little uncomfortable with the idea?
Blane: I understand because, of course, it’s related to very heavy themes. I mean death, it’s a very tricky topic to talk about for some people, especially, you know, in our U.S. culture. We don’t tend to talk about it very much. So, it can be heavy, it can be triggering, it can be, um, uncomfortable. But I would say it’s going to happen to all of us—as we know.
So, even if you are uncomfortable with it, I think walking through a cemetery, even just strolling through even for 5 or 10 minutes, is really a great way to begin to think about, you know, some of these important topics of death, which really is a part of life as the experts all say. It doesn’t have to be morbid or scary or sad.
I actually find that cemetery walks are, actually, can be very uplifting. And I find deep connection with sort of the human race in general, just having visited them.
No one, no matter where you are, where you live, what your background is, what you do, what your political beliefs are, you’re going to end up in the same state.
So it just is a way to connect us. And I think it’s actually really important right now in this very politically divided society that we live in. And it just can offer a really unexpected way to find perspective and compassion. And something I always find too, is that, when I leave a cemetery, it’s—I never feel worse than having, than having visited. I always feel better, I always feel like I’ve learned something new or I’ve seen something I would have never otherwise seen. Or I’m just sort of uplifted by, you know, seeing flowers on a grave.
You know, it’s a sign of love and we really need that, I think, in this, in this day and age.
Aislyn: You know, it’s interesting because I used to live in Oakland. I’m in the Bay Area and they have a really beautiful cemetery called Mountain View. And we lived within, like, walking and running distance. So we spent a lot of time there. And it was like a recreation site, but not in a way that felt, like, felt disrespectful.
It’s beautifully landscaped, first of all. So it feels like an invitation to come in. And it did feel like, A: We were connecting with, or I was connecting with a cycle of life, you know, this reminder of what happens to all of us. And then we would see so many people and families coming and like actually setting up picnics and celebrating.
And, and I loved that because I feel like that’s an aspect that we don’t tend to as much here in the United States.
Blane: I would agree.
Aislyn: But I’m thinking that also when you travel, this sense of understanding that life is fleeting, even if we were to live to 110, you know, that’s a relatively short time.
Does it also then enrich your experience because you have this sense of like, I need to appreciate these moments, right? Like, do you feel like that’s part of what you walk away with?
Blane: Absolutely. You really nailed, you really nailed it there. It’s this sort of like circle of life. It happens to all of us, no matter what country you’re traveling in, where you’re visiting, why you’re there. I just, I find that, you know, even more, you know, now than when I was younger, I’m just finding a real connection with that.
Aislyn: And do you have a ritual like, do you have something that you do at every cemetery or graveyard that you visit?
Blane: I wouldn’t say I have a ritual when I’m by myself, but my dad and I began to do this when we began to explore cemeteries together, which we’ve done for as long as I, as I can remember. So he’s kind of like my cemetery walking companion, very much from the historical perspective as well. We’re the only people who are like, “OK, there go Blane and Bob. They’re going to go off on their cemetery tours.” It’s kind of like an inside joke in our family now. Right. Um, but something that he and I have done over the years is we try to find the oldest birth date in the cemetery.
And, uh, for me, it just always drives home this point that, if you stroll through a cemetery and it’s, you know, a couple hundred years old, you always find someone who’s lived through some catastrophic situation.
Uh, the Great Depression, or World War I, or World War II, or the Vietnam War, wars and famines, and a lot of suffering, and yet, there are some that are still there, whether or not they survived those catastrophes or not.
Beyond that, I wouldn’t say I have any rituals, but I’m very careful to remember that these are places of burial. They’re sacred places.
I often, I think about how I was raised, you know, in a Southern upbringing, just both my grandparents, actually all of them, were just very big on manners and they, they just would hammer home how to behave at the dinner table.
And I just feel like the same principles and the same manners and etiquette should apply in a cemetery. Don’t shout, don’t yell, you know, be respectful. If I happen to be wearing a baseball cap, which is not that often when I travel, but if maybe I went for a run that morning or something and I’m wearing one, I just always tend to take it off before I, before I go into a cemetery as a sign of respect.
I also, my dad had taught me this, I mean, ages ago, and I’ve always done it since, I try not to actually walk on top of someone’s grave.
Aislyn: Yeah. That feels . . .
Blane: I try to walk in between the tombstones. And I try to kind of always suss out where the headstone is and then maybe where the footstone might have been, depending on that person’s age, which you can usually sort of get from the headstone there.
So rituals, not really, but I would say more etiquette and respect are really big deals for me.
I tend to turn my phone off and put it in my pocket or put it in my purse and, and just be present in the moment. I will pick up a paper map if they’re available, smaller cemeteries and graveyards probably won’t have them, but if it’s a bigger one, I’ll get a paper map and I’ll just kind of use that to kind of wayfind. And letting just the thrill of discovery, you know, take me to see what’s next.
Aislyn: You shared a very personal anecdote within the story that in Berlin, there are these cemeteries that honor babies who die either shortly before or after birth.
And it’s such a powerful way. Like it’s so rare to see that kind of acknowledgement. So why do you think this type of burial ground is so important, especially for those parents and for the children?
Blane: Of course. When I saw these sections of cemeteries, they’re actually called Sternen Kindergarten, which means “star children gardens.” And that is a German cultural concept that I had never heard before, but it honors children, babies who died in utero or shortly after birth or were stillborn.
And I’ll never forget when I saw those graves for the first time, I was just absolutely, I mean, really almost brought to my knees from the sense of profound gratitude because I, I’ve suffered multiple pregnancy losses. My husband and I had a really difficult journey to become parents. And so this was a, a type of grief that I experienced personally, but I’d never before seen any public acknowledgement of this.
I mean, here are graves with a headstone and there’s one date, you know, what more do you need to know? And I just feel like it was just such a moving way to honor these lives that mattered to, they mattered to the parents. They mattered to their, to their loved ones. These were lives too. And it feels like this was just such a respectful, compassionate way to honor those lives that I’d never seen before.
Aislyn: I appreciate you sharing that, because it’s such a vulnerable thing. But I think, you know, like we were discussing over email before the interview, it’s so important to talk about these things, right? And again, this conversation about death can be so wide ranging and so personal. And you know, everyone has their traumas. And in some ways, this makes it public and it seems like it gives you a place to grieve perhaps.
Blane: Absolutely, yes. I mean, the way I would sort of sum it up, it’s that these are very, these are public acknowledgements of what’s traditionally been a very private, private grief. And there’s something very, very powerful about that. About saying that, you know, “Hey, this happened: My baby died, and they mattered, and they deserve to be, honored and remembered, just like everyone else.”
Aislyn: So the benefits do seem like they can be quite personal, but there’s also, it seems to be some universal benefits. And you touched on some of the research; could you share some of the benefits that travelers could perhaps expect?
Blane: Of course. Well, I mean, first of all, there’s the physical exercise and it seems basic, but you just get the fresh air, you get outside. I think there’s also the, the calming aspect of these are very quiet places. They’re very peaceful. They’re usually very beautiful. They’ve got trees and flowers and they’re designed to be quiet and reflective.
And I think there’s something that’s very restorative about experiencing them, even when you’re traveling, maybe even especially while you’re traveling and things are hectic and you’re trying to navigate a new place and figure out the subway system or find that new restaurant. I think that this is a very easy way to kind of just step back and go, “OK, let me just catch my breath for a minute.”
There was the research that I was talking about in the piece that was very interesting. There was a study that was done a little, you know, a ways back that talked about how people were more apt to give someone a dropped item if it happened in a cemetery as opposed to a few blocks outside, which I think is just fascinating.
So, this idea that being within the confines of a cemetery with the reminders that life is short and that we should take advantage of the time that we have: I think there’s something very powerful about that and what it says about us trying to be good people.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly.
Blane: I think that’s really quite powerful.
Aislyn: I’m curious if you have any thoughts on burial itself, is changing, right? Like there’s this idea of kind of human composting and maybe cemeteries running out of space. What do you think about that?
Blane: Oh, lots of thoughts on that. Of course. I think that, of course, this is inevitable. I mean, these are, we’re running out of space, you know, in big cities. Um, I’ve seen a lot of, you know, the stories that have been written about new, green burials and human composting. I think it’s fascinating and I think it’s necessary.
Those are very environmentally friendly ways that we need to start thinking about for burial ceremonies as we move forward and as climate change continues to be a problem and we run out of space. I mean, those are all great. I think that sort of also puts the, the onus on us to go visit, you know, graveyards and cemeteries now while we still can.
I mean, many of them sadly have fallen into disrepair over the years, families move away and a lot of the older ones you can see that it makes, it’s kind of sad. You just see this, this grave that’s, you know, been lost to time. And so there is an element of, you know, go and do this now while you still can.
I’m, I’m curious to see what we develop as new burial rituals through the next generations that come. But I think that makes it all the more important to go and experience and explore and appreciate, you know, traditional burial grounds and cemeteries that we do have now because they may not be here forever.
Aislyn: You mentioned it earlier, this idea that we don’t really talk about death and dying much in the United States, but in other countries, that’s very different.
So I’m, you mentioned at the end of your story, wanting to visit Mexico City, the Day of the Dead. Why are you drawn to that? What do you think is different in terms of cultural practice there? And how do you think this type of tourism has helped you become more comfortable with the concept of death?
Blane: I think I would have to say that, going back to what I was talking about earlier, the inevitability of this, just because we don’t want to talk about it doesn’t mean it’s not going to happen. It is going to happen. So why would we not start preparing for it and getting more comfortable with it so that when it happens, whenever that may be, we can make them make the most of it and be OK with, with it as much as we can.
Um, they’re very heavy topics. I’m not going to lie. I mean, it’s, it is tricky to kind of get your head around what it all means. But I think in my travels, having explored lots of cemeteries in different countries, it’s just always helps to know that we’re not the only ones going through this.
It’s a very universal, collective, uh, you know, inevitability. I think in Mexico, I, I’m just inspired by the sense of joy and embracing of, of this traditionally sort of morbid life event. I think it’s great and I think that, I think that we could all, you know, sort of take a page from that book.
I remember watching Coco with my son and just loving, loving that movie so much because of its just beautiful, beautiful creative interpretations of, of what death is and Mexican culture and how they really, you know, welcome that into their daily lives.
Aislyn: Well, is there anything else that you feel like travelers should know about this type of tourism?
Blane: We’ve covered a lot, but I would just go back to what I mentioned earlier: If you’re curious, just pop in, you know, there’s, there’s nothing that’s going to happen. You’re not going to get haunted.
Aislyn: Yeah, you’re here, you visited thousands.
Blane: Yeah, you’re not going to come out, you know, with some strange, whatever.
Don’t be afraid of cemeteries. They’re public lands. Depending on where you are, your taxes probably pay for them. So go, go check them out. Go, go see what you see and learn and take away from it. Um, not a whole lot to lose. But just remember too, when you’re traveling, especially you’re, you know, you’re, you’re a guest in someone’s country or city and just remember kind of the etiquette goes up a level with cemeteries.
Aislyn: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Blane.
And that was Blane Bachelor. In the show notes, we’ve linked to the story she wrote for afar.com, as well as to her website. And if you’re inspired to try a little tombstone tourism of your own, leave us a message and let us know what you think. Our new voicemail link is in the show notes. We’ll be back next week with a deep dive into points and miles with the OG expert, Brian Kelly, aka The Points Guy, who’s written an entire book about the topic.
See you then.
Brian: I got my first computer in 1990, ’91. So I was like the eight-year-old hacker of the family. And my dad got a job for a startup. So I was his computer wiz booking his travel. And the long and short of it is he came to me one day and said, I have all these frequent flier miles. I figured out how to book all six of us to go to the Cayman Islands for free.
Ready for more unpacking? Visit afar.com, and be sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter. The magazine is @afarmedia. If you enjoyed today’s exploration, I hope you’ll come back for more great stories. Subscribing makes this easy! You can find Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. And be sure to rate and review the show. It helps other travelers find it. We also want to hear from you: Is there a travel dilemma, trend, or topic you’d like us to explore? Drop us a line at afar.com/feedback or email us at unpacked@afar.com.
This has been Unpacked, a production of AFAR Media. The podcast is produced by Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland. Music composition by Chris Colin.
And remember: The world is complicated. We’re here to help you unpack it.
