S4, E1: Your Next Tour Might Be a Silent One. AI Will Remake Your Hotel Experience. These Are the Travel Trends to Watch in 2025

On this episode of Unpacked by Afar, we take you behind the scenes of ILTM (International Luxury Travel Market) in Cannes, France. Afar editor in chief, Julia Cosgrove, and senior deputy editor, Jennifer Flowers, talk to leaders from some of the biggest hotel brands about the ways luxury travel is evolving. From how AI can enhance your stay to hotels making genuine connections with local communities, they share how their brands are adapting to what travelers want most in 2025.

Transcript

Aislyn: I’m Aislyn Greene. And this is Unpacked, the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel each week.

Welcome back, everyone. It is a fresh new year, and we have a fresh new season for you. We also have a new way for you to connect with us. You can now leave us a voicemail. Just click the link in the show notes and share whatever you want: thoughts, questions, a city or destination that you’d like us to unpack . . .

Speaking of unpacking. We are kicking things off with a dispatch from one of the most important travel shows that happens every year: ILTM. ILTM stands for the International Luxury Travel Market, and the show takes place in a fittingly luxurious city, Cannes, France. The conversations that happen there shape the way we travel for years to come—conversations like the one you’re about to hear.

Afar editor in chief Julia Cosgrove and senior deputy editor Jennifer Flowers sat down with leaders from three of the world’s biggest hotel brands: Hilton, IHG, and Hyatt. You might be familiar with them. These leaders shared their take on the biggest trends in luxury travel, including the shift toward highly curated experiences and, of course, AI and the ways it will enhance your next hotel stay. It was a rare chance to understand how hotel brands are really thinking about travel and travelers right now.

Here’s what you need to know to start planning your perfect travel year.

Julia Cosgrove: Thank you all so much for being with us today. I’m Julia Cosgrove, vice president and editor in chief of Afar.

Jennifer Flowers: I am Jennifer Flowers. I’m the senior deputy editor of Afar.

Julia: And we are gathered here today . . . haha. Um, we are here in Cannes for ILTM, this amazing gathering of industry movers and shakers who love travel as much as we do, and we thought it would be an excellent opportunity to sit down with you brilliant thought leaders, in our space, and talk about the future of travel and luxury and what’s coming next.

So, I’d love, actually, if we could just have everybody kind of introduce themselves.

Crystal, let’s start with you.

Crystal Vinisse Thomas: Absolutely. I’m Crystal Vinisse Thomas. I look after the lifestyle and luxury brands at Hyatt.

Dino Michael: Morning. Dino Michael. I have the pleasure of overseeing Hilton’s luxury brands.

Jane Mackie: And I’m Jane Mackie at IHG overseeing luxury lifestyle and premium brands.

Julia: So I’m going to start with something a little more personal, which is I often like to think about telling a young person about your career trajectory and how did you get to this seat that you’re sitting in, in Cannes.

Dino, let’s start with you.

Dino: Ooh, um, I was the classic immigrant child who studied law, went to join a law firm, didn’t. Went to work at Planet Hollywood, which my mother was devastated at because she just couldn’t understand it, and was in restaurants, bars, nightclubs, late-night venues, and I joined Hilton 16 years ago as the regional director of food and beverage for the U.K., which was a very prestigious title back then. And I’ve been with Hilton 16 years through food and beverage, through development of luxury, luxury brands. Headed up individual brands here and there and then took the category role almost four years ago. So, yes.

Julia: Planet Hollywood, I love it.

Dino: Exactly. I know. Still got my shirt.

Julia: As one should.

Dino: I still have the shirt.

Julia. Yes. Proof. Proof! Jane, what about you?

Jane: Uh, I started, I guess, a bit the old-fashioned way in a hotel training program for Sheraton Hotels at the time. Uh, my parents were quite upset as well, having paid for four years of university. And I started cleaning 16 rooms a day in Jacksonville, Florida, and worked as you did in a training program a month in every department, including night audit. I was a bouncer in the nightclub.

Group: Yes!

Julia: There’s a theme!

Jane: Yes. And eventually worked into brand management on a task force basis and the all-suite hotel concept—dating myself—uh, and just really loved the way brand management brought together operations, marketing, and customer centricity. And ultimately had some other wonderful roles with Fairmont Hotels and Resorts, Aman Resorts, and, uh, now been at IHG about six years. And pride myself in that I’ve never had to ask a colleague to do a job I have not done myself.

Julia: That’s, that’s a great proof of pride. Yeah, I love that. Crystal, what about your trajectory?

Crystal: Yeah, there’s a lot of alignment here. Mom was upset. Uh, started in law. Uh, a few things. I’d say, I didn’t know about hospitality as a trajectory until I got to college. I happened to go to Cornell. And I started out in undergrad, really in the more general program, because I wanted to be a lawyer, like, all my life. I’ve always been very type A, very like, “This is what I want to do, A to B.” And then all of a sudden I didn’t want to be a lawyer anymore, but I didn’t know what I wanted to do, and I was introduced to the hotel school and just fell in love with the idea of connecting with people, traveling for a living, and what that meant.

And so I’d say I got here by just being curious and saying yes and raising my hand for things. So I had the fortune of being a Starwood management trainee. So I started on property level. I thought I was going to do sales because, you know, anybody with the gift of gab thinks that’s what you’re supposed to do. And then I just realized that storytelling was actually core to me. I wouldn’t have named it storytelling because I didn’t know that as a name at the time, but that’s what led me to brand. And so I started, I came up in the world of W in my Starwood days, I lived abroad, um, [in] Brussels for a few years, looking after our region.

And I left the industry for a bit, went to Apple, took a sabbatical, did some cool campaigns for Beats by Dre, and then, you know, travel came calling back. So I’ve been at Hyatt now for about five years, and, you know, I’m based in L.A. and keeping it moving.

Julia: Love it.

Crystal: Yeah.

Julia: OK, so nightclubs, law, disappointed parents who are, I’m sure, no longer disappointed.

Jenn: And bouncer. That is awesome.

Julia: And bouncer!

Jenn: I’m not surprised, too, Jane.

Crystal: I love it, I love it.

Julia: So this week is obviously an opportunity to talk about how luxury travel is changing and evolving. And you three spend, I’m sure, most of your days contemplating that. If you had to describe how you think affluent millennials are changing luxury travel today, how would you? What would you say?

Jane: What Next Gen are looking for are two things. One is experiences money cannot buy, which are those—they love adventure travel and, you know, just those, maybe a bit of bragging rights of things that people have not yet done in their peer set, so they’re not followers.

And the other thing that, that is interesting and the difference maybe from, from current generations or former generations is they are very interested in loyalty programs and points, at all aspects of the market. They want to be recognized for their loyalty. They want to, yes, accumulate points and miles. I think you’ve probably seen it, uh, at Hyatt and at Hilton. And, and, be appreciated for the business that they drive.

Crystal: Yeah, I’d say, you know, I think we’ve been in an experience economy for over a decade, right? Like it’s been 10, 15 years where people want experiences over product and then, you know, that, that stemmed from now there’s so much accessibility to design direct-to-consumer things.

So it used to be that you’d go to a hotel room and you’re impressed by what’s in there. But today, you know, your TV at home is bigger than the TV in the hotel room. You can have a similar aesthetic that feels minimalist or feels design-forward at home. So it’s almost like you’re taking a step down by, by traveling in some way.

So that puts, I think, more pressure—to your point about value—that, that’s not the, the intention anymore. It’s about what can you give me that I can’t buy on my own? And so what we’ve been seeing is, particularly within the luxury segment, they want experiences that will change them more than experiences that are just on the surface of, you know, something I can post on Instagram.

So, “How will I see or gain a different perspective of the world and my place in it in a different way? How do I have an experience that shows me how meaningful it is to be alive and to live in this world that has so many things to offer that I haven’t seen? And how do you, as a hospitality company, enable that for me and the destination that I’m in where I happen to be staying at your hotel?” So I think that’s been an interesting thing for us because it changes what we’re selling. Um, especially when we think about, we are selling a product, but we’re also selling the experience. And now it’s like we have to sell the destination and the experiences within that, that are unique and special that, that affluent travelers could pay for but couldn’t get access to.

Julia: Yeah. Dino, does that track for Hilton?

Dino: Yeah, I mean apart from the fact that we want it all, all the time. Um, no, no, I think they’ve graduated almost from this notion of “I want the Instagram shot where you’ll have the queue of 50 people looking for the Santorini sun-soaked, you know, sunset shot.” You know? They don’t want that anymore. They really want the genuine inside knowledge, and that’s not just about the anti-mass-tourism element.

I think that’s more about “I don’t just want to be a bystander, a voyeur of local culture. I want to be a part of it. How can I go into it, immerse myself, and come out the other end feeling good about it?” Versus, you know, “I’ve just been part of a ritual and then I’ve paid my price—20, 30 [dollars]—and moved on.”

I think that we’re not always the primary reason for them staying with us. You know, the hotel could be a secondary consideration to “I’m here for a sporting event, a concert event.” I mean, if I think about Taylor Swift, that was the primary reason for the travel, and people were bolting on a European trip because it was actually, when you looked at the whole thing economically, they could get a much more enriched experience coming to Europe, see the concert, do something local, really, um, get some benefit from the trip. And I think the way they interact with us, um, you know, I know we talk about AI and the digitization of our brands, but I think, they do warm to the analog. They want the interaction. Yes, you’ll communicate 90 percent of the time on text or WhatsApp or WeChat, the messaging platforms, but they do want the personal interaction. They’re happy to sit down with us and listen to our teams, and they want the true insider knowledge.

Crystal: Yeah, that was another insight. We had to, like, shift from personalization to customization.

Like, it used to be enough that you knew my name and you know my preferences. Now I want to participate. Like, I want to be able to customize my experience with the person and, like, let’s have a dialogue about crafting that together, and that used to not be the case, right? The luxury was not having to think about it. Now the luxury is, oh, you can enable this, and I want to be here to help inform and to shift it as a whole.

Jane: You can learn something. And I was thinking about the texting and the dialogue. One of our more popular experiences at Sixth Senses Ibiza is the silent tour. And it’s just a trek through the hills with a local Ibiza guide, and it’s purely in silence, and then they say, “Now you can speak. We’re heading back.” And often they say, “Actually, could we go back in silence as well?” Because they’re just really loving that experience. And, again, that’s something money cannot buy. It doesn’t really cost anything. But the value is . . .

Julia: . . . they’re getting out of it and that sort of sense of personal transformation. I want to go back to something you said, Dino, um, that they want to be part of the local culture and that it is different than taking a photo of the local culture, right?

Like, becoming an active participant. When you are, are building a new property and working with the local communities that you’re going into, how do you ensure that that happens and that that’s going to feel good to the people who live there?

Dino: Yeah. I mean, well, we, we, we build economy, number one. If you think about some of the new territories that all of us go into, you’re building economy, and we’re providing income, security, stability. You know, again, we’re, we’re, we’re fortunate that we come from large organizations where we have, you know, strong ethical practices: you know, our, our employee approach, the way we think about our employees first and foremost, the way we develop and we craft our team member facilities, our benefits, you know, even, ah, you know, our Hilton employee, um, rate, we have a charge, a dollar goes to an employee assistance fund. So we have, you know, mechanics that allow us to support employees in times of crisis.

We come into local economy, um, from that, first and foremost, and secondly, I think, like most of us, we work with owners, generally, who are from that area, and they have an overriding obligation to make sure they’re doing the right thing for their community. So I think it’s a partnership. It’s not all down to us. We have the right owners and partners, and they want to make the right impact. So I think there’s a long relationship. We signed 20-, 25-, 30-year contracts with individuals, and yeah, this relationship is built for generational intent.

Jane: Yeah. I love the way you put that, Dino, that we create economies. Six Senses, we actually put a percentage into a sustainability fund. Um, but it does start with training the colleagues and our general managers. I think we can align on all three companies and in the industry—they’re the heroes. They make it happen.

If the colleagues feel empowered to showcase the community and to protect the community, there’s no way that the consumer is not going to feel good about that.

Crystal: Yeah, I think it’s all about the dialogue that you have with the community you’re in. I never want to be that brand that comes in, puts our awning up, and then, hey, we’re here. It has to be intentional. A lot of that starts before the doors ever open. Once the GM is selected, like you said, one of the first jobs is to get embraced and immersed in that community. And when I look at a brand like Alila, that brand has become so immersed in the communities it’s in.

One of our guiding principles is “Be a good neighbor.” Our property in Fort Bishangarh, they fund the schools in the villages that surround it. There’s multigenerations of colleagues who’ve worked at the hotel, so the hotel doesn’t feel like a place to work, it feels like their home.

And so that ends up being translated to the guest, to your question about being part of that local culture. Sometimes you have these experiences that are in the locale, and they feel a little bit weird, because it’s like, you know, “I feel like we’re infringing on this community and being spectators.” But when you have an authentic relationship with the community you’re around, it doesn’t feel that way, and the guests can feel that. And to your earlier question about the millennial—speaking as one—expectation, we can see right through if you don’t have that authenticity and authentic relationship.

So when you’re able to have that real relationship, you’re able to offer something to the guest to be an active participant, and they’ll really feel genuinely a part of it.

Dino: I mean, we have a guiding north star. I mean, this applies to the industry, not necessarily exclusive to Hilton, but Conrad Hilton famously said, you know, “to fill the earth with the light and warmth of hospitality.”

And we start our leadership meetings with a, with a letter that comes from a guest or a team member, basically to remind ourselves of why we do what we do. ’Cause I think, you know, our industry, it’s long hours. Our team members are extraordinary individuals, what they do. And you read these letters, of how our team members make guests feel and the length they will go to, to, to resolve something, to fix it, or just to basically make someone happy. It does ground you a little bit, and you’re right, I think unless you’re authentic about that, you can’t script genuine hospitality, you’ve got to get the culture right. And I think we all work really hard as an industry to get the culture right in all of our respective brands.

Jenn: Yeah, actually that reminds me of some conversations I’ve had with the Six Senses and InterContinental teams about how, you know, wellness is one of the biggest trends in travel right now, but, there’s this shift it seems, and maybe you can speak to this more, Jane, about how, you know, wellness actually starts with the team and like, is the team well, are they being taken care of?

And I think it was at Six Senses that there are programs for like staff members to partake in, like mental health programs to your point, like it’s starting with the staff member, which then that carries over to the guests.

Jane: The Six Senses Ibiza colleagues do, do the silent tour. Um, so they actually do some of them and we’ve actually gone really from wellness into health at Six Senses, always trying to be out in front. It’s an opportunity for colleagues to learn and people to learn about their health. If they don’t want to and, you know, I’m happy to have the second white port and tonic, if they offer it when I check into Six Senses in the Duoro Valley, and I decline the health assessment. But many people choose the health assessment. But uh, yeah, we really moved into women’s health will be a big focus for us next year. And really having some of those conversations that five years ago nobody wanted to have, never mind in a luxury hotel brand. So I think it’s really forcing our colleagues to become more in touch with themselves and giving options to guests that may choose to do something a little bit more than the 50-minute Swedish massage or use the gym.

Crystal: Yeah, well-being is core to Hyatt’s purpose. I mean from the beginning, Hyatt, we care for people so they can be their best. You, you hear it and you’re like, that sounds a little . . . but it’s so real and it starts with the colleagues. And so any opportunity we have to ensure that our colleagues are well, as you said, because if they’re not, how can they service our guests in a meaningful way?

And again, the guests will see right through it, right? And so things like, Headspace is one collaboration we have that we offer in our hotels, but every Hyatt colleague gets it as complimentary and it helped get me back to sleep last night with this jet lag. So I’m grateful for it every day, but there’s, there’s different programs and things like that, similar to what we’re all saying in terms of, like, just ensuring that the well-being of our colleagues is top of mind.

I think we have to start there before we do anything else.

Julia: I want to shift to sustainability and ethical travel, which is very much part and parcel of what we do at Afar. First, I’m going to just ask: Do your guests, of which there are many, I know, saying your guests is a lot of people, do they care about sustainability? Let’s start there.

Crystal: Yeah. I mean, you know, it’s interesting. I was just having this conversation with some, uh, industry colleagues last night that sustainability sometimes when they hear that, because now it’s been so, not to use the word transactional again, but it feels like a fourth kind of like authenticity is a buzzword, sustainability became that . . .

Jane: Transformational.

Crystal: Yeah, all of these words. I think they’re turned off when they hear it, but if you are just talking about the essence of what you’re doing: be a good neighbor, give back, like, environmental consciousness. I think that is top of mind. And when we’ve done campaigns and brand lift studies, one of the first questions they ask when they’re being asked about brands is what is their, you know, philosophy on environment, sustainability, and things like that.

In the world we live in now, it’s hard to escape and ignore. And so we’d be crazy not to, and our guests are definitely holding us more accountable than they have before. I mean, now it’s like no, if you don’t have the, the full, full-size amenities in the bathroom. That’s a problem. And it used to be the other way around where it’s like, oh, I don’t want to use something that somebody else has used. And even in luxury hotels now where you’re saying it’s OK to have water filtration systems in the hallways and guests are asking for things like that, even at the luxury level that, you know, you used to only see in maybe select service, you’re seeing things expected to be more sustainably conscious, um, in your operations.

Julia: And is that coming from the customer?

Jane: If they weren’t already very conscious of it, if they’re employed, their companies have also trained them to be very sustainably minded. So we all deal in the B2B sector as well. And the major corporations, it’s part of our annual RFP and we have to provide very detailed reports on our sustainability initiatives, our environmental footprints, that traverses all of our company in the industry. So consumers, if they’re not already feeling that way, they’re hearing it from the company they work for, which is ultimately paying for the trip somehow, some way, through income or reimbursement.

And then they do expect to see that payoff and then become—I really learned about it by working for a sustainably minded company, about what do I need to be doing at home, how do I need to be thinking about the way I travel, what environment I’m leading.

Dino: And I think at our scale, at our respective scale and sizes, you can’t take a brand-by-brand approach because if one brand’s doing more, the other, the question was, well, why aren’t the other brands doing it?

So I think there’s an umbrella effect across our enterprises where, you know, Hilton has to be seen to be, you know, taking the lead as an enterprise versus individual brand. And I think the more you talk about it, it almost diminishes it in some ways because the guest is expecting it. At your scale and at your size, why are you trying to convince me when you should be doing this anyway? You know you should be responsible across the board.

Jane: Yeah, we’ve published our science-based goals for 2030. I know many companies have. And we will be held accountable and we knew that when we set them and they are not easy because if you don’t set ambitious goals in anything in life, it won’t get done, and what doesn’t get measured doesn’t get done either. And that’s public information.

Dino: And when it comes to life, I think on property, you’ve got, obviously, you have the enterprise, we have our Light Stay Initiative, we have Travel With Purpose, but I think the hotels can bring to life the stories where you’ve got the unique ways above that, so whether it’s, you know, the common Maldives, where we’re helping to restore the coral reef, or whether it’s, we’ve got the turtle preservation program in the Seychelles. You can highlight through individual properties, but I think the overarching message has to come from, from the company.

Julia: And are there industries outside of travel that you look to?

Crystal: I mean, the automotive is probably not the best, but I think they’ve had the most progress in the experimentation and the test and learns with the rise of EV everywhere.

And then I live in L.A. so I live in a world where there are driverless cars. It comes to mind because even when you think of Uber Eats and these, you know, food service delivery that have things, you know, riding on the sidewalks and eliminating people driving to delivering foods in a certain distance around you.

So I think there’s a lot in transportation that is being done well, or at least they have a lot of experimentation on how they can, you know, decrease fuel and the impact on the environment.

Jane: Yeah, I think when you think again back to 20 years ago, right? The idea of an electric car would be like that sci-fi. That’s not for me and now it’s unusual to find one that’s not at least a hybrid.

But I think also, you know, people that were early influencers like Stella McCartney and she made sustainable fashion beautiful, stunning. distinctive and, you know, wearing it like a badge and it’s a very approachable price point as well. So just sort of embracing not just—and if you read her, her website and she does some really advanced things in sustainability, um, but also makes it inclusive in terms of her price point and that spreads her influence even further.

Crystal: Yeah, I think apparel and fashion, they do a better job of storytelling because it’s easy to integrate, I think when you look at Nike, Stella McCartney, you know, you look at [a] shoe and they talk about how many plastics were eliminated by, you know, the sole of the shoe or, you know, design your own shoe and it’s made fully of these materials and people are like, oh, that’s cool.

And so they’ve been able to, I think, combine the storytelling nature of their sustainability efforts with their products in a, in a meaningful way that I think extends to the guests. And I think there’s something to be learned from that. I know we just talked about, don’t use the word sustainability, but like, how do we storytell in a way that feels . . .

Julia: . . . It’s a very clear get, right? And, and the way the consumer sees that entering a hotel room, great, but there’s no more single-use plastic. Great. Yeah. Housekeeping.

Jane: Towel reuse.

Julia: Towel reuse. But there’s so much going on with food waste, and I don’t know.

Jane: The kitchens are a huge focus for us because, uh, obviously electricity, food waste, overall waste management, water, everything.

The kitchen is a huge focus that the guest doesn’t even see that. But we, in a luxury end, we don’t want them to see it. That’s right. It’s somehow important to your point, Crystal. We’ve got to storytell on that.

Dino: I think the food supply chain is trying. I think the packaging, everything’s wrapped in plastic three times, now having, you know, the biodegradable. I mean, we used to wrap bananas, which seems ridiculous when you think about it. But I think food service in general, think about the foam, the Styrofoam, all of that packaging. I think, you know, moving to obviously cardboard, recycled materials, biodegradable, that’s helping. And you’re starting to see that in Europe, they’re making a big push, particularly in that arena, you know, the, the, the grocery store, uh, plastic bag, which is just landfill.

So I think that industry, the grocery industry is trying to make a big impact.

Julia: What about AI? Everyone’s favorite or least favorite topic right now. How are you approaching it? Challenge? Threats? Tool?

Dino: I think it’s to be embraced. We’re always going to live in luxury, with the analog and the digital. And I think those two can live very well together side by side. And I think the digital side of it or the AI side of it comes with removing tension, friction, whether it’s, you know, you know, when it’s like you’re halfway through getting dressed and someone knocks on the door. It’s probably the most frustrating thing you can have in a luxury hotel room.

So if tech can help that predictability when housekeeping should enter a room or not. If we can help take the major preplanning through AI on a trip. And then the analog part comes in when you get to a hotel and we’ve talked about you sit down with someone and you refine that trip. You refine the experience. I think the two should sit comfortably side by side, and I think in luxury we’re always going to have the touch, the analog, the bespoke, the personalization. So I think they complement each other versus, you know, contradict.

Jane: It’s an “and,” not an “instead of,” particularly in luxury. The industry launched something called Kipsu and there are some others. It’s a text-based technology. And we were nervous at luxury. Do people want to text? But it’s like Uber in that it automatically translates. So, you’re not dealing with a language barrier. So, usually you’ll get a message, a text, if you’ve opted in as a guest, when you get to your room and it’ll say: Do you need anything else? And you can reply in English or whatever. And, you know, the extra hangers or whatever it is you may have requested, up it comes and you’re not dealing with language or maybe, maybe you prefer text. Or maybe you prefer the phone call. It’s just giving people more options.

Crystal: I mean think we talked about personalization, right? AI is the ultimate, I think, conduit to that once it gets—so it’s a learning model, right? So as it continues to learn you, your travel behaviors, it becomes a great complement for us too to cater to your preferences and your intentions and so as we use that as a complement, I think it only enhances the guest experience even before you arrive to us. So the way we’re using it on the back-end—we’ve been using this for years already, but the advances that have been made have enabled us to use it even in a deeper way.

So when you go to the website and you want to play golf, you know, that’s, that’s already giving us a number of things that AI can just take and show you what destinations, or if you know your destination, show you the best golf courses and also the experiences and then the best restaurant to eat based on your preferences ’cause we know you’re allergic to seafood. So that, that kind of, um, complementing service I think is what’s exciting to me, specifically within luxury, our ability to better personalize your experience with that.

Julia: It’s sort of different entry points that can bring you along the journey as you’re making your decision.

Jenn: Yeah. Thinking a lot about what you were saying, Jane, earlier about loyalty and the hotel space and how like that personalization moment, like it, like points aren’t going to get loyalty, but like that personalization is and I’m so curious to know how your loyalty programs are evolving to, like, meet this next generation of travelers. Are they the same as they were 10 years ago? Are you approaching them in a different way?

Jane: Well, as Dino said they want everything all the time. Points and recognition. The big change we made was the element of choice with each stay. You can choose which extra amenity you want. Maybe in this one you want the extra points, or the next one you may want free breakfast and, um, we don’t just automatically, “That’s your profile, Crystal, and we’re going to give you the same thing every time.” Um, so giving that flexibility and element of choice.

Crystal: Yeah, same here. The customization part is really important and to take it a step further. World of Hyatt again is grounded by care and what we realize with our loyalty members is they care about the people around them as well, especially like the road warrior who is away from home and maybe wants to extend their status to somebody else because they never get to use it outside of business.

So, if my mom is traveling and I’m a Globalist, I can extend my Globalist benefit to her. And they love that ability to be able to, OK well I’m not going to use this benefit that you’re giving me because I’m traveling so much, and I’m, I’m expensing most of my things, so the points and the free nights I can’t use, but now I can use it in a different way.

Dino: It’s, I think, a big part of it is also just recognition. It’s as simple as just thank you for staying with us again. And I’ve seen the impact, if you just say a welcome back. We haven’t seen you since 2022. Even that small acknowledgement of when they were last in that individual property just is worth its weight in gold. And I think that’s the key of unlocking, you know, kind of loyalty is really making them feel as though they belong. It’s that sense of belonging—that one trend has never changed. You joined because you want to feel like you’re part of something, and you’re recognized for that. And I think, look, AI will help us get those preferences, you know, even more ingrained. I mean, it’d be great if, you know, I know what side of the bed you sleep on. That’s turndown, you know, that’s the side of it.

I mean, just those moments of surprise and delight we talk about over and over again. You know, again, as the world’s changing, making sure we’ve got the right pronouns. If you’ve got same sex couples traveling, you know, you traditionally, you’re going to resort, you might have a “his and hers” hat versus having a “his and his” or “hers and hers.”

Jane: Bathrobe sizes. The slipper sizes.

Dino: That level of granularity, I think is where loyalty is really going to come into it. And that’s how you’re going to get people to come back because they, they feel, and I think what this generation wants, “Do you understand me? Do you see me? Do you hear me?” You know, I think if they feel seen, that is massive. Um, and that’s, I think, where the loyalty inputs and CRM are really going to help us take it to the next level.

Jane: And let’s face it, they also want the upgrade. They want some of the tangibles as well. And that loyalty will make them feel, even to your point, you know, if they’re recognized at arrival, they will anticipate they’re having a better experience than if they weren’t loyal to you. And we know that there are some that are loyal to all three of us. We welcome them all. We can’t all be in every single destination.

Julia: Seen by all three.

Jane: And then, no, but that’s good for the industry. If people become addicted to travel. Hey, that’s good for Afar. It’s good for our hotel companies, airlines, the world.

Dino: Well, that trend of moving beyond personal possessions, right? If you look at, you know, the fashion industry and the luxury goods industry, they’re seeing a bit of a blip right now. People are prioritizing experiential travel time over possession, which has been a long, a long grain trend, but I mean, I think recently, it’s become more profound as well.

Crystal: Well, you see how they’re creeping into our space though, right? Because of that. “Like, oh, you don’t want this product. We’re going to open a hotel.” “Oh, you don’t want this product. We’re going to have an experience a brunch all day, you know, the Gucci brunch, right?” And so it’s just like “get out and stay in your lane,” you know.

Julia: I’m glad you brought that up because this came up yesterday as well, you know, we have obviously seen a lot of the, the brands partnering with fashion and, and retail companies.

Our roundtable panelists yesterday said, “Oh, it’s actually the flip. It’s that they’re starting hospitality companies.” Yeah. And is that a threat? Do you think of it as a threat? See it as a threat?

Jane: No, because ultimately they come to us and want to plug into one of our three distribution systems because they realize and have a loyalty program. No, I think it’s great.

It is very attractive for investment. And the investment in our industry, fortunately, has, has not dried up. Construction loan interest rates have gone up and down. Fortunately, it’s a little better now. But we have access to our customers 24/7. And whereas somebody walking into the Gucci store here, in La Croisette in Cannes again, they’re in there for anywhere from 5, or in my case, 45 minutes, because I haven’t yet made the shift, you know. I’m still in the “and economy.” Stop and.

Crystal: Same here, girl, same here.

Jane: But, yes, you know, they’re staying with us at the Carlton Cannes for three days. So yes, we have access to our clients, not in an invasive way, but we have ability to sell them more products, more food, more beverage, potentially an upgrade.

And yes, get to know them in a way that you can’t in a transactional environment. So I think that’s how these fashion brands see they’re leveraging their brand equity into a more meaningful profitable stream, but make no mistake. It’s not for the faint of heart to build a luxury hotel.

Dino: But you said it’s partnership and collaboration. We do what we do really well, and I think it’s—we’re not fashion brands. We’re not fashion retail. So to partner, to collaborate is great. And I think, you know, we at our core we will always do what we do. I mean you’re seeing some of the brand extension like branded residential is a massively growing vertical, right?

But I think for us it will always be, you know, let’s partner, do some fun things. It’ll be temporary. It’ll be interesting. But at our core, we do what we do best and they will, I think that the fashion brands will, will try this space. But if you look at it, I mean, the few examples that have existed haven’t really got to scale.

So, I think it’s more the temporary nature of it and it’s fun. It’s interesting that it creates appeal. But you know, we all kind of stick to what we know best.

Julia: It’s a little bit like, oh yeah, it sounds fun to open a restaurant.

Crystal: No, don’t do it! If you don’t know what you’re doing.

Jane: Capital intensive, it’s labor intensive. And unless somebody has the, the net worth to be able to go and build that hotel on their own, they’re going to the capital markets. They’re going to, to get loans. And then people are going to want to know immediately what the revenue stream looks like. And it’s a very specialized area in this industry. There are lenders that know what they’re doing. They know what questions to ask and they know that, you know, the larger companies and these longtime companies have the answers to those.

Julia: So while we’re on financials, let’s talk about rates. And they just kind of keep going up, it feels like. Is there a ceiling? Is this a bubble?

Jane: I would say it’s not a bubble. And obviously, I think people are still in the whiplash of didn’t travel between 2019 and 2022 and then you saw the luxury end of the market per STR about a 19 percent increase in rates. But had it been an increase every year and actually if you would have adjusted it for inflation. Luxury did outpace inflation, the luxury average rates coming out of COVID. The rest of the industry per STR didn’t, it pretty much kept to the inflation. It’s just that people went, stayed home for three years and they were comparing,“Well, gosh, three years ago I paid, you know, 20 percent less in, in luxury.” So, I think there was a, a perception that, that rates from a consumer perspective increased in a more meaningful way than they did.

And then, you know, the rates increase each year has not been as big, um, in luxury. So I think, you know, people are willing to pay for that. And as we started off the conversation saying, if you are giving them more than that guest room and restaurant and all the related services, giving them access to things that are really, truly special, uh, they are willing to pay for that.

Dino: It’s value. You know, the price is secondary to value. “Am I, am I getting what, what I’m paying for?” I think as long as you can stand behind that and offer, you know, justification for that, right? It will continue north.

Jenn: Yeah. Remind me: All-inclusives, that seems to be, like, a big word in travel, luxury travel right now. What are you all doing in terms of all-inclusives, if anything, is that something you’re interested in? Do you think it’s, it’s gonna fizzle out or do you think it’s actually like having some momentum in luxury travel right now?

Crystal: If it’s any indication, Hyatt bought an all-inclusive—Apple Leisure Group—in the middle of the pandemic. So I certainly think that’s something we’re, you know, primed to see continued growth within that segment and the continued expansion into luxury.

I mean it used to not have the most positive sentiment when you hear all-inclusive, but now—and I think some luxury brands have started it with, like, property by property. So you have one property that’s conducive to that, where they have an all-inclusive package, but maybe they don’t promote it because they don’t want to have that association.

But you’re seeing a lot more openness to that. The way we’re seeing it is less about the price of it and more about the convenience of it, right? So it’s like “I’m having a luxury experience, I don’t have to pull out my credit card. I don’t have to see a bill.” Um, that is an ultimate luxury as well, especially when you’re in a leisure destination, especially, um, you might be with family, you might be with friends and you don’t want to have to deal with that type of transactional nature of the experience. So I think that’s still continuing to, to build and people are having a better appreciation for the product that’s available within that segment.

Dino: Yeah, it’s really, really popular and fully selling in luxury, you’re right, there’s individual properties dipping into it. And there is a little bit of confusion around terminology. I mean, all-inclusive can mean meal plan. It can be dinner, bed and breakfast, breakfast and lunch. I think, the alcohol, I think, is what sometimes has the negative reputation.

But if you look at some of the trends, a lot more people are sober. Not through any kind of recovery, but they [are] just choosing to just remove alcohol from their, from their diet. So that’s not becoming as important as it perhaps it once was. Um, and I think there is this negative sentiment around all-inclusive because of that. You just have this impression, you know, unjustified in a lot of cases, that you walk into basically a party zone, right? Permanently. Um, but no, it’s growing. It’s growing in popularity. It’s becoming more sophisticated. I think there’s still limited markets where you can do that today. But we are seeing it grow.

Jane: Now there is demand. We chose to partner with the Iberostar, to have an all-inclusive offering and they know how to do this. They do it really, really well. There’s different technology platforms required to be able to book it seamlessly. We need to know how many adults, how many children, ages of the children.

And then it enables a more personalized experience, but also, that, that’s how it gets priced. So we chose to partner with a longtime family that does this really, really well. We have dipped into it. It’s discussed on a property-by-property basis. We signed our first Kimpton, all-inclusive, in the Riviera Maya. And that whole market tends to have, at least to Dino’s point, some kind of an all-inclusive offering.

So sometimes it’s market driven versus brand or category. Mm hmm.

Crystal: But again, it’s changing. Like when I think of what we’re doing with a brand like Impression by Secrets, which is partnering with like world-renowned global class chefs, to come and bring chef dinners and experiences, that’s not something you would think about in all-inclusive back in the day. And so it’s just, it’s interesting to see how that’s continuing to shift. And I’m curious about the collaborations and continued, um, partnerships we’ll see in that space across the industry.

Julia: Chefs, you just mentioned. Is, uh, I don’t know, I’ve been reading various things that sort of the, the pinnacle of the chef is over. Is it over? You know, that sort of obsession with, I need to eat at this restaurant because it’s helmed by the chef.

Dino: I don’t think you can apply that as a general rule. It depends what market you’re in. There are some markets that still, still really, really want the, the star chef and the big name. And there are other markets where—like we obviously we’ve just signed chef Michael Anthony for the world of New York and he’s a, he’s a local New Yorker. And that was absolutely right for New York. So it depends where you, I don’t think you can apply that, um, globally.

Crystal: And it depends on the chef.

Dino: Yeah, yeah.

Jane: Well, we just flew in Michael Mina, so I’m going to say yes, just in case he’s listening. He’ll be, uh, he’ll be cooking at the Carlton tonight and he’s doing the restaurant at Regent Santa Monica.

Um, no, I think they—like our general managers—they are heroes. It is a really difficult job. And even when we do kids events, if we bring out one of the chefs from the line in the chef whites, kids just love to see a chef. Absolutely. It is a skill. And even, I have two friends doing midlife career changes and going to culinary school right now.

Julia: Wow, cool.

Jane: Um, so it’s something, food is passion and I, those chefs who have actually been able to make it a career and become celebrity chefs, I say “chapeau,” hats off to them.

Crystal: Yeah, and I think content is queen these days, and, and so when you’re getting access to celebrities in general more than you ever had before, it’s also inviting folks to take this kind of behind the scenes look at, to your point about fascinations with chefs and just how you get there, and with Thompson that’s been a big part of our ethos is the culinary partnerships that we have with some of the best chefs in the world.

And we did a little bit of a test and learn this year where, um, we just launched a chef series featuring the stories of three of our chefs, chef Ludo Lafayette, Thompson Denver, Enrique Vera in the Cape, and, um, and an up-and-coming chef we have in our newest Thompson Palm Springs. The, the twist we took on it was we’re not going to go to the market and then go to the kitchen and show you how, you know, we picked out greens and cooked it.

We’re telling you their stories and how they got to where they are because a lot of people are fascinated by the idea of being a chef but don’t know what it took to get there. And so when you see a chef like chef Ludo say, “I worked 40 years before I was, you know, even made it.” It’s like, “Wow, but how did you, what influenced you?”

“Oh, my grandma; I never tasted jalapeño until I went to L.A. And what an interesting spice.” You know?

And so I was just like, wait, you . . . “Oh, I had kimchi and it was just incredible.”

And so it is just, bringing down the barrier to, like, what makes these people human, because they seem very superhuman. I think, um, connecting with guests in a different way, I think they’ll still follow, follow that.

Julia: So maybe it’s, it’s no longer the star chef is sort of up here in the, the ivory tower of cheffing. It’s more how do you nspire a kid who’s coming in by telling, telling them the story of how I got here.

Dino: It’s appreciation of the craft. I mean, look at the popularity of The Bear. I mean, that program, I mean, if you’ve ever worked, you know, we’ve all worked in hospitality and restaurants. That’s quite triggering. You look at the anxiety of that service, like, “Oh my God, that’s, that’s that really bad shift I had.” And then you look at the reward at the end of it and the, and the, and the family. And I think the story of his rise, you’re right. It’s the, how did you get there and the real appreciation of the craft in itself versus the fame around the dish.

It’s, it’s, it’s great because you need, we need more people to come into culinary. It’s a really hard part of our business to recruit for and the more we can make that, you know, appealing.

Crystal: Especially women.

Julia: Yeah. Interesting.

Jane: And when you see some of these celebrity chefs from Nobu, Tan, Michael Mina, Theo Randleman, the thing they love best is being in the kitchen. Absolutely. Yes. They made a lot of money on TV, but they love being in the kitchen to your point, Dino, you know, showing the joy.

Julia: And doing what they do best. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jenn, you asked sort of a summing up question yesterday.

Jenn: Yeah, we wanted to take a look at the next five years for your groups and your individual brands as well. If there’s one thing that you are really excited about in the next year or two, in terms of an opening, something you’re launching, something that you really think speaks to what is happening at some of your key luxury brands.

Dino: I have the easiest one. Yes. It’s opening the Waldorf Astoria New York after an eight-year restoration. I’ve been involved in that from day one, when we obviously turned off, with our kind of guests and business partners and important clients in the ballroom, when we kind of turned off the chandeliers and watched everybody walk out with stuff.

And to watch that over eight years completely transformed from over 1,400 bedrooms to a mixed-use residential hotel. And that comes back in the spring. And I think it’s probably the most important opening in our company’s history. I think our CEOs, you know, can’t wait to get it open. We feel a big obligation to New Yorkers. I’ve had so many emails and letters saying: “Don’t you guys mess this up. Don’t you ruin it.”

Crystal: That’s real.

Dino: No, no, it is very real and it holds such an important place in the psyche of New York. And I think, you know, they’ve seen other restorations maybe get handled differently, but I’m, I’m confident everyone will be happy when it reopens.

I was there two weeks ago and now the internal scaffolding is down. You can see the detail and all the craftsmanship and the moldings that were hand done on property. And we had a studio built in the lobby for all the artisans to work. Seeing that I think will be a bit of a crowning achievement for a lot of people in our organization.

Julia: I just had like a Renaissance painting studio in my head as all those literally different artisans are . . .

Dino: You know, literally they’re lying on their backs, you know, restoring the friezes and the paintings and they’re taking off, you know, years of, I, I guess, you know, just, just the buildup of, dust and grime and you take down drapes, you know, “Oh, I didn’t know that column and that marble was there.”

And you know, this, the gold leaf and the silver leaf and it, it’s magical and to be in that building when there’s nobody else in it is also quite surreal. Yeah.

Julia: That has echoes of the Carlton.

Jenn: Oh, it does.

Jane: So maybe if I can indulge you with two quick ones: One would be, and Dino gave me the inspiration, so we’ll open Six Senses London and if anybody saw Mr. Selfridge on PBS or Netflix, they merged. Uh, he merged. Selfridge’s merged with Whiteleys, which was the oldest department store, so that’s been historic preservation and adaptive reuse, and a neighborhood transformation in Bayswater. So that will open in about seven or eight months. Um, uh, if you let me into the Waldorf, I will let you come to Six Senses London.

Jenn: I love this wheeling and dealing.

Jane: Well, you’ll probably be staying at Kensington Palace, so you can just walk up the road. And then the other thing I’m excited about, it’s always fun to open something new, but I’m just so excited about the future of the InterContinental brand. We’ve just done a whole transformation of the brand differentiators, the culture, the service. And it was launched by the founder of Pan Am and one of the two companies still exists, which is InterContinental. So, just seeing the transformation and we have just over 200 open, but we have 100 in the pipeline and just seeing how that brand will continue to open up new territories as it did starting in 1946.

Crystal: Yeah, I um, I’d say similar transformation: Park Hyatt. We’ve got, finally, some good pipeline and portfolio openings. Like we opened our first hotel in London, River Thames recently, Marrakesh, but transformation Park Hyatt Tokyo is being transformed. Closed for like 18 months—

Jenn: I know, I’m so excited!

Crystal: I know! See you, see your face. That’s exactly what I want. Um, what I have personally even, from remembering it before I worked at Hyatt and we get notes all the time. Same thing, like, “Don’t mess this up, guys.” Uh, so really excited to bring that icon back to the forefront and we’ll be going through a transformation with that brand next year.

And then Alila, man, I’m really excited about. It’s one of those, you know, brands that not as many people know about it, but when you know about it, boy, do you know. And so there’s so much opportunity and we have a renewed focus on that brand that expanded. Um, we just opened our first urban hotel in Shanghai, and I think that’ll set the course for how we move, you know, providing a respite and an oasis in an urban, um, destination.

A few of us have done that, um, and so I’m really excited about what that means for the brand and, and the doors that’ll open to get visibility on Alila and, and really the transformation that you can have, uh, with that brand. So I think luxury is booming and, and we’re all kind of leading the way there.

Julia: Well, I’m very inspired to go to all of these places and eat in all of the restaurants—and not sober yet, so have some cocktails. Have some cocktails in the, is it the Peacock Alley?

Jenn: We can detox and retox. We have all the tools here to detox and retox.

Julia: The silence in Ibiza. Yeah. But thank you all so much for taking the time. It’s a very busy week. It’s a wonderful conversation.

Aislyn:  Thanks for joining our inaugural episode for 2025! We’ve linked to the people and resources from this conversation in the show notes. And check back with afar.com on February 13th for our Plan Your Travel Year series, where we provide the tools so that you can set yourself up for travel success in the new year.
 
Next week we’ll be back with an episode about tombstone tourism, which is not as spooky as it seems.

Blane Bachelor: People think of a haunted cemetery and while definitely there are haunted cemeteries, which could be, you know, another whole podcast in itself, I think the aspect that I really appreciate now, as I’ve gotten older is the historical and the cultural aspect that cemeteries and graveyards offer.

They really offer a different way and a much more personal way, I think, to experience a place, seeing where its citizens, its residents, the people who live there, seeing where their final resting place is. That to me, it just feels like a much more personal way to experience a new destination.

Aislyn: Ready for more unpacking? Visit afar.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram and TikTok. We’re at @afarmedia. If you enjoyed today’s exploration, I hope you’ll come back for more great stories. Subscribing always makes that easy. And be sure to rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platforms, it helps other travelers find it. And if you want to ask a question or suggest a topic for coverage, you can leave us a voicemail at the link in the show notes, or email us at unpacked@afar.com

This has been Unpacked, a production of Afar Media. The podcast is produced by Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland. Music composition by Chris Colin.

And remember, the travel world is complicated. We’re here to help you unpack it.