On this episode of Unpacked, host Aislyn Greene chats with long-term Paris resident and culture journalist, Lindsey Tramuta to get a pulse on the city and how it’s changing. From her favorite off-the-beaten path restaurants to how the 2024 Olympics have affected the city, get an insider’s view into the City of Light.
Transcript
I’m Aislyn Greene and this is Unpacked, the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel each week. And this week, we’re kicking off the first episode of our “Off the Beaten Path” series. In each episode, a local who lives in a popular destination shares travel tips, etiquette, advice, and more to help us go beyond the tourist hot spots and really get to know the places we visit.
And we’re starting with one of the world’s most iconic and most tourist cities: Paris. Our local guide is Lindsey Tramuta, an American culture and travel journalist who has lived in Paris for more than 20 years. Lindsey is also the author of the books The New Paris and The New Parisienne, and she’s the host of a podcast, titled, you guessed, The New Paris [Podcast]. Throughout her work, she has explored the people and ideas shaping Paris, and in today’s episode, she shares how she’s seen the city change over the decades.
She also shares what it’s been like since the Olympics and Paralympics wrapped, insights into Parisienne fashion, and the one thing you should always do when in Paris. It’s much easier than you might think.
Aislyn: Lindsey, welcome to Unpacked. It’s so nice to actually see you in person after working with you for so many years.
Lindsey: Thanks. It’s good to see you. I think maybe once we spoke on the phone, but this is a, this is a different experience.
Aislyn: It’s a totally different experience. It’s really fun. I’ve, I’ve actually enjoyed that over these past few years actually getting to kind of connect with writers that I’ve, you know, really enjoyed working with over the years.
Lindsey: Well, and it’s a, it’s a much more, uh, I mean, there’s greater proximity with podcast, which is a nice feeling too.
Aislyn: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and we’re talking to you today because you have this vast experience with France. You have lived there for how many years now?
Lindsey: Uh, nearing 20 actually, which is insane.
Aislyn: How does that feel to . . .?
Lindsey: How does that feel? Well, it feels like I’ve, I’ve lived like a couple of lives and I don’t really recall what it felt like to be the person before. Uh, but I know I obviously went through it and I lived it. Um, but no, I mean, France really does feel like home to the extent that, uh, being in the U.S. feels very foreign almost, and I think that happens to a lot of people who’ve spent sort of their formative years in elsewhere, I mean, wherever that might be.
And, and certainly, you know, this being a major capital in Europe means that a lot of my, I guess my values and my expectations and my mannerisms have become, you know, more European. Um. And so the, you know, the abruptness and the speed of things on, well, at least the East Coast. I mean, I know you’re . . .
Aislyn: West.
Lindsey: You’re coming at it from the slower side of America, but, um, you know, it, it, it feels very jarring and . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . so I’ve, I’ve changed a lot as a person, I think, in the time that I’ve lived here, um, which I guess is to be expected.
Aislyn: Of course. Yeah. And then you are immersed in this other culture. So of course you’re going, if it’s working, you’re going to be part of that culture, right? Like you’re not just going to hold on. Oh, Hi kitty.
Lindsey: Sorry.
Aislyn: No, it’s all good. I love it. I love it. Such a tiny meow. Um, well, you know, I interviewed someone, um, a polyglot, last week about, you know, speaking different languages and, and she was talking about how learning different languages has actually changed her.
Like she becomes a different person as she becomes more fluent. Do you feel like that happened?
Lindsey: A hundred percent. It’s such an interesting phenomenon because, um, you know, in some cases it might be, more or less confidence that you have in that other language. Um, I think it, it varies on the, the context or the people I’m with. There are times I can feel so much more confident in French and then others where I feel, you know, like I’m, you know, I’m, I’m a version of myself I don’t even recognize and then vice versa. So, I think it allows you to, you know, test certain personas, which is quite interesting just going through life and, and, and, and become, when you need to, someone who’s a little bit more adaptable. I mean, that, that’s the other great thing about language or living elsewhere is that it forces you into a situation where at some point you’ve had to, or you will have to adapt.
Aislyn: Yeah. I mean, we could all use more of that.
Lindsey: Yeah, just because, you know, we’re not, we’re not really good at change, right? As humans. So, um, if you’re, if you’re forced to, you know, get comfortable, uh, with wherever you’re, you’re living or the people you’re living with or engaging with, I think it allows you to be adaptable and apply that, uh, maybe that agility to other parts of your life.
So, you know, having another language has opened up so many things for me. Um, and, and I think really, uh, fundamentally the French don’t think the way Americans do in, in a lot of ways. And so that also allows me to look back at my home country with a more critical lens and, you know. So it’s all these things that language and, and living elsewhere does to you.
And that you get a little bit when you’re traveling, but certainly not in the, the profound way that you can when you’re on the ground.
Aislyn: Yeah, absolutely. And you’ve lived in Paris for most or much of that time?
Lindsey: Oh, the whole time.
Aislyn: The whole time? OK. Oh, wow. Wow. So then . . .
Lindsey: I’ve seen this girl change a little bit.
Aislyn: I, yeah. What have you seen? I’m, I’m curious to know 20 years of a city.
Lindsey: Well, I mean, some of that, you know, that’s, that’s partially why I wrote The New Paris, because it was like, there was a period of such tremendous change. And a lot of that had to do with, um, the, the, uh, financial downturn of 20, 2008, 2009, and seeing that as being a really big shift in the way people did business and approached um, approached life here.
I mean it was really, it was, it was unstable, um, you saw a lot of people radically change their careers because they had to. Um, and, and that, you know, it’s not only true for, for Paris or for France, but it definitely marked a turning point, I think, in my, uh, appreciation for Parisian, um, well, their own adaptability, really, um, because it had been a long time since they had, uh, felt any kind of, um, disrupt, big disruption in the way that, that, you know . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . economic crisis had really, um, spurred something and, um, and, and, and it was sort of, yeah, a cycle of change.
Um, but from that came, you know, a lot of very inventive businesses, restaurants, concepts, urban projects. You know, it was like a moment of real, of real change.
Aislyn: Yeah. That’s, that’s amazing. And then have you also seen, like, something similar come out of the pandemic? Was that another cycle of that or was that a smaller, I don’t know, aspect?
Lindsey: Um, it was huge. I mean, certainly there were a lot of negatives. Um, but, you know, some of the policies and transformations the city had already started undergoing, you know, long before COVID initiated by Hidalgo, our mayor and her administration, you know, including all of the bike lanes and the miles and miles of bike lanes and really trying to deprioritize car dependency and curb pollution.
All of that really sort of shined even brighter during COVID and certainly when we were locked down for a significant amount of time, you know, everything glistened and the, and the ability to have roads to yourself, you know, grand avenues to yourself when we were able to actually go outdoors, of course.
Um, it felt almost like, you know, sort of Sleeping Beauty waking up and having an entirely new home. Um, and, you know, the bike lanes have only continued to expand since then. So that was another thing I, you know, I think is one of the, you know, lasting and most visible marks from COVID, was there were all these lanes that were made temporary for COVID and then now have become permanent.
So it just accelerated some things.
Aislyn: I see. Yeah. OK. That silver lining, you know, not that the pandemic was in any way a positive thing, but it’s interesting to see these, the ways that cities especially have changed in its wake. And you’ve talked about that a little bit because you have your podcast, The New Paris Podcast, which is in its eighth season.
Lindsey:Yeah, it’s kind of crazy.
Aislyn: That’s crazy. Congratulations.
Lindsey: That’s a lot of . . . Thanks!
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of interviews you’ve done over these last eight years. But in a recent episode, you talked about how Paris is this global leader in urban transformation, especially in comparison to what you saw on a recent trip back to the United States. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that?
Lindsey: Sorry, someone is coming out of the litter box. I’m just waiting for it to leave. Because I’m worried you’re going to hear the scraping.
Aislyn: I hear a little bit, but it.
Lindsey: We’re good. He has completed his job. Um, yeah, you know what struck me about being in the U.S. the last time was just the infrastructure that felt like it really needed an update.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: You know whether it was, like potholes left and right that hadn’t been, you know, filled or handled or just a sense of being completely run-down and, and I think Paris has, you know, areas that are that way, um, or, or need, could use a little bit more, you know, care and love. But for the most part, the pandemic specifically was like doubling down on, OK, we have this opportunity to try to, you know, make lasting, make a lasting impact based on some of the, um, you know, the improvements we’re seeing since people are not driving around.
They’re not using the space in the same way. And, and I think that care and trying to improve livability, um, is something that makes Paris so, um, so interesting to follow, especially if you’re interested in seeing how big cities adapt to . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . you know, global issues, including climate issues. And, and so it’s, it’s kind of had to do this because pollution has always been an issue here. But it just felt more jarring to see how a place like Paris has, um, you know, redone all these, uh, neighborhood squares or big, you know, sort of prominent squares in, in, in the heart of Paris, how they’ve, uh, planted trees and taken away parking spots in order to create these, uh, you know, a sort of a, a greener, um, what do you call it?
Sort of, I don’t know, like a, like a barrier along a lot of roads, which also just creates a feeling of what enhances the neighborhood feel. Um, and it’s also, you know, one of several solutions to try to improve air quality and create, you know, a cooler environment. But so, you know, there’s this real commitment to giving the city back to Parisians and also trying to, you know, even do the uncomfortable, which is, you know, take car space away from people.
Um, and then you go to New York, um, and I went to the, the Philly area and it just felt run-down.
Aislyn: Yeah. Interesting.
Lindsey: Um, and, and it could have been just the phase, you know, maybe I came and saw it in a less than perfect light, maybe it just had been a while, but generally speaking, um, and, and because you were talking about the episode I did with an urbanist who, used to live in New York and so, you know, sees the difference between the way Paris addresses certain issues.
I think it’s not all just my imagination.
Aislyn: Yeah. Absolutely.
Lindsey: You know, there’s a real difference in the way Paris has tried to go after some of these changes and be a pioneer, not just for the rest of Europe, although they’re, you know, I think they’re mostly modeling some of their changes after a city like Amsterdam, for example, or Copenhagen.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: At least in terms of the bike, um, use. But in other ways, you know, they’re, they’re a leader for, for other European countries. And so the U.S. just seems like it’s in a very different space by comparison.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I think there are some cities that are doing a better job of that than others. And, um, you know, but yeah, I’ve been to places where it feels the same way. It’s like, you know, don’t we want to be a leader in this way? But, you know, then you look at, like, our national stage, which we won’t get into—and it makes sense that maybe there’s some tension there.
Lindsey: Yeah. And I’ve also seen, you know, smaller cities in America looking incredible. I mean, I remember years ago, so granted it was before COVID, but being in Greenville, South Carolina, and seeing what local commitment can do to transforming a small city into, into a thriving, small city. Um, and so it’s quite impressive, but I do think it, it’s, it really takes sort of going up against backlash because invariably, especially if you’re doing things like Hidalgo has done, um, it means there are some, you know, unsatisfied people.
Um, and, and, and, and of course she’s a woman, so she gets it even more fiercely, um, but it, it means like we can’t just treat these old cities the way we have been. They need to adapt to our current climate context, our current, you know, population size, the density, and they weren’t meant for all of these cars.
I mean, sort of the cities weren’t meant for all these cars, and so, you know, how do we adjust and make it a better place to live and visit?
Aislyn: Do you think that most people come around to these things, even if they’re not happy at first, like that they kind of see the positives or the benefits or, you know, change is hard, like we were talking about, people like to complain and then ultimately . . .
Lindsey: Yeah.
Aislyn: . . . like be better.
Lindsey: According to The Urbanist, that’s generally how it goes, in that we see, we read stories about certain cities that have, you know, become sort of textbook, best-in-class examples. But we don’t really think about how they got there.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: Or the pain points along the way and, and so I think we’re it’s just that we’re living it and Parisians love to complain quite audibly and so, you know, you know about how uncomfortable it is while it’s happening.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsey: But there are other parts of France as well that have also made a lot of adjustments, um, that are quite impressive, um, whether it’s using trams, trying to cut back on car dependence in, at least, in city centers. So there, you know, this is part of, uh, multiple cities’ focuses in, in, in building for the future.
Aislyn: Yeah. Absolutely. Um, excuse me.
Lindsey: Yeah.
Aislyn: Sorry. Um, I mean, Europe has been so progressive in that way and it’s, it’s nice to see it, but I think that we often see it in kind of a global sense rather than kind of down to the individual city level and like the pain points that can come up along the way. You know, kind of going back to the beginning of your time there, I’m curious to know what drew you to Paris initially and what keeps you there now 20 years later. I imagine they’re probably different, but maybe not.
Lindsey: Well, I, I, I studied French literature and linguistics and I was not really a Francophile like most, I mean, most of the people I know here who came, who are foreign, you know, they, and it’s not, it’s not a hundred percent the case, but the majority of people are really choosing to live here because they have a profound fascination or appreciation for French culture.
And I would say my love for it came via language first. And, um, so I studied, um, for a summer and then I stayed, uh, I, I came back for my final semester of my undergraduate studies. And so when I was able to stay beyond that, it was really because I was living out what I had always wanted, which was to live a life in French.
And, there were very few places in the world, you know, with, with, within some . . . I’m going to say that again. Um, it’s not like you can elect to speak French in every country in the world. You know, it’s, it’s West Africa, it’s French-speaking Canada, it’s France and Belgium and Luxembourg, maybe, you know? I mean, so I’m here in the sort of the hub of where I could see how a life could develop where I’m able to have one foot in sort of an international world but also have been entrenched in a French world.
Um, so this being a global capital but also being French, you know, it’s sort of offered and still offers that dual possibility. Um, but after that, why do I stay? I mean, culture, gastronomy, life balance, um, and healthcare. Although I’ve, you know, and I’ve written about this a bit in the last couple of years, but the, the healthcare system is, you know, I don’t want to paint it as a, as a panacea because it really is struggling more now financially.
I mean, this system that is so generous costs the country a lot of money. Um, but the fact that even if I had to pay out of pocket for something, um, we’re not talking about the same sums as we’re talking about in the U.S. And so, and that’s even true in, in Switzerland. I know it’s true in Germany. You know, these, these are cultures that have just prioritized, the health of its people.
And so it, it is almost inconceivable for me to imagine living in a place that doesn’t have this as sort of a value. Um, and I know, and I know, you know, things have improved for some people, um, because of Obamacare in the U.S. and, you know, but it’s just not the same. And, and I think once you’ve had this as an experience, and for those who have kids too, you know how important it is to have that as well.
Um, I don’t have kids, but you know, many of my friends do. And, and it does, create a shift in perception and your long-term values as well. Um, so if I stay today, it’s sort of for all of those things. And, um, and that I still want to be able to live this life, um, in, in, in two languages, really.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. You’ve made it happen. You’ve created such a …
Lindsey: Yeah, I mean, that’s the short version.
Aislyn: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We could take two hours.
Lindsey: The pain-free version.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. I’m sure there’s been.
Lindsey: No, and there, you know, there are bureaucratic hurdles there, there’s big, heavy administrative challenges to go through that everyone sort of knows, it’s part of the stereotype that that’s true. But, um, but again, that’s true in America too.
Aislyn: Of course.
Lindsey: For foreigners.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That’s a really good point. Um, I read David Leibovitz’s book, the one about remodeling his apartment.
Lindsey: Ooo. Yeah.
Aislyn: It’s just, I feel like the classic, you know, red tape.
Lindsey: Everything goes wrong. Yeah, red tape, everything goes wrong, kind of scenario. And, you know, it makes for really great stories, too, after the fact, after you’ve recovered psychologically. If you’ve recovered psychologically.
Aislyn: Hopefully that was probably therapeutic for him to write that book and then weave in some, you know, cooking and recipes like that. So soothing. Um, well, we are recording this in September and it’s been, you know, a bit since the Olympics. So I’m curious to know what you’ve seen in this kind of post-Olympic Paris and what you imagine the long term, I don’t know, benefits or effects of the Olympics will be on the city?
And, you know, also looking at it from a visitor lens.
Lindsey: So interesting because we were so negative and so cynical right up to the, you know, the last day possible. In part because of the way the games were presented to us as locals, you know, I mean, and I think that was a mistake on the part of, um, the, you know, government officials to, to really encourage us not to be here in a lot of ways.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: And, and that left a really lousy taste, um, um, in our mouths and, and, and tickets were not cheap, of course, and you had to imagine because they went on sale so far in advance, you’d imagine sort of what it was going to be like, where we were going to be.
And as you know, and perhaps listeners know, you know, we had a political curveball thrown, uh, you know, a mere month before the Olympics. And so the energy was very sour. And I think none of us could have anticipated that it would become this absolutely magical, enchanting success story—with, you know, some complications. Um, obviously the, the, the, the preparations for the games in any host city is quite, is quite heavy.
Um, and on the impressive side, there were very few site-specific new builds, right? They were repurposing. Primarily 85 to 90 percent of the venues were existing and, you know, the, the bike lanes were already there and there were already things in place to make this sort of seamless, um, but Paris is not the most accessible city.
So that presents another challenge.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: Um, and some of the other subway, um, and transport extensions that were supposed to be finished were not. Some were. But most were not, including the airport express train that’s been, I feel like we’ve been hearing about this for 15 years, um, but that is also delayed. I think now the deadline is 2030.
Aislyn: Oh my gosh.
Lindsey: So, you know, they, there, there’s this desire to accelerate things with the Olympics or for the Olympics . . .
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . which is good in some ways. Um, but what I really hope the lasting effect will be is, A, now that we’ve just finished the Paralympics, that we continue having these conversations about the lack of accessibility, because it is so egregious and, and, and visible, and not only for people who are, uh, dependent on wheelchairs, but, you know, if you have a stroller, uh, a cane, a suitcase, you know, like there are all sorts of scenarios where people are, um, limited in their mobility. And the bus systems are the better option, but they’re not perfect.
Uh, the trams are good, but they don’t, they’re not used within the city center. Um, and so you’re really talking about needing to update and retrofit a very old metro system, and that costs upwards of 20 billion euros, apparently. So, so what I’m hoping is that that’s going to be the thing that we now have seen—we need to do this. This needs to be the next priority.
I wish that had been a priority over the work on the Seine, um, which, you know, is, uh, it is what it is. I think it’s an interesting project and it’s certainly, you know, a body of water that it’s, we should have better access to, um, but, you know, if it was about trying to update certain metro stations that were going to be heavily used versus that, whatever, this is, this is how I would have spent my, you know, the budget, the billion-dollar budget if it were up to me.
But then I also think if we’re really careful, the joy and the, and the magic that we experienced—and that French people in particular experienced—and that’s true for French travelers who live elsewhere and who have a different relationship with Paris, one that’s maybe a bit, um, one of intimidation, one of, um . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . distrust in some ways that it’s going to deliver on its promises.
And so it did. And I think that’s a really positive memory for us to have. And also for the foreigners who, you know, couldn’t stop, um, sort of, gushing about how spectacular it was and how, you know, well done and clever and, and this and that the, the experience was. And so . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: I worry that people have a short-term memory, but I also think that, you know, all it takes is sort of looking through a few of the images.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah.
Lindsey: A few of the millions of images that we saw during that time to remember, like we really did this, this was, this was Paris in, in a way that we haven’t seen it in 100 years or ever.
Aislyn: Wow.
Lindsey: One hundred years since the, the, the previous games, but you know, we didn’t—Paris didn’t look the same then. We weren’t the same then.
So, so it’s a, it’s an interesting milestone. But I do think that the, if it’s, you know, if we’re following the, the Olympics trajectory, it’s going to be a long time before we know the long-term payoff. And I think . . .
Aislyn: Sure.
Lindsey: . . . hopefully the long-term benefit will also be for the Department of Saint, Saint Denis, which is north of Paris, the suburb just north of it, where most of the events were held.
Um, you have the Stade de France, you had, um, La Défense Arena, you had the Olympic Village, um, which is being transformed into, um, I want to say it’s, for 6,000 residents, it’s going to be, um, private, private homes/social housing, um, daycares, businesses, you know, really trying to build up what they’re considering a sort of eco-neighborhood.
Um, but the arguments, uh, or the, or the concerns around gentrification are there as well. So, you know, there’s never, I think there’s always sort of this, um, you know, heavy optimism and then the reality will be somewhere between, you know, we overshot and this will still have some positive benefits. Um, so we’ll see.
But, ultimately I think it, we’re so, we’re so, um, close to the experience still. So it feels momentous.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. Do you still feel like the magic has lingered? And did French people stay? Like, what ultimately did many people decide to do in terms of kind of staying in the city versus abandoning it?
Lindsey: No. Parisians left.
Aislyn: OK. Yeah.
Lindsey: For the most part they left, but the number one tourist group throughout the Olympic period were French travelers.
Aislyn: Oh, interesting.
Lindsey: So we see a lot of, obviously, the Americans, but if we’re talking about the numbers, we’re talking about several million travelers, among them were tons and tons of French travelers . . .
Aislyn: That’s cool.
Lindsey: . . . who came because this is a totally unique experience.
And some of them live within Ile de France, which is the Paris region. Um, and so they might stay, come in for the day. They could come overnight. Um, and I think that’s also, that is just as important as impressing sort of the, the rest of the world. Um, because like I said, the, the rest of France and Paris, there’s always sort of this . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . interesting relationship, probably going back to the royal court and, you know, Paris being the whole, the home and the hub of everything and of leadership and the monarchy.
And, and so for there to be a positive experience for people who live either in the countryside or from other cities, I think it, it’s crucial. So the energy now, we are, you know, back-to-school period right now. I think there’s still some excitement. The Paralympics only ended a week ago. So it’s um, it’s still fresh and . . .
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . um and certainly we can’t escape it, to some degree, because the installations are now coming down.
So we’re like, oh, this is yes. This is the reminder of, you know, we’re moving on to a . . .
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . a new chapter. Um, but there’s hope that even the, uh, the cauldron, which was absolutely spectacular from the designer, Mathieu Lehanneur, um, that that will become um, permanent somewhere, maybe not in the Tuileries Gardens, but it will become . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . a fixture of our, of our landscape somehow.And, and that we will have these reminders.
Aislyn: Very cool. Well, you attended, right? What was the most magical moment for you? Would you say?
Lindsey: Well, I attended, yeah, I attended the opening ceremony, but from a dry spot. Um, so everyone knows that we got, you know, seriously rained out. Um, it was, I think it was the fact of seeing all of this unfurl beneath, beneath us on the river and having been so convinced that it was not going to work or that something was going to go awry and then to be proven wrong in such a spectacular way. And to realize what was going on behind the scenes because we had no idea what the sort of the story was going to look like, how it was going to unfold um, and I will never forget the rock band performing with the, you know, the women holding, uh, um, Marie Antoinette’s head, you know, decapitated head.
I mean, that, that, when you think about it, I mean, I know it sounds and it probably seemed so jarring at first, but the, the historic and literary throughline of the, of the Olympic opening ceremony was so unbelievable to me that I just, I don’t know, I will always remember what it felt like to be like this is our city. They did it. They . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: We have something that I think no one will ever be able to reproduce, probably because it’s also too expensive and too much of a security nightmare. But, you know, this is a one-time thing.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: And I think that is something the, the sort of, I don’t want to say exclusivity of it, but in the, I guess for Parisians it did have this exclusive quality, we were sort of, um, you know, we can, we can, we can boast that this was our city.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah,
Lindsey: And we know we love to do that.So when it works, we love to take credit for it. And it’s worked.
Aislyn: Well, congratulations. Yeah.
Lindsey: Yeah, I’m. God I’m . . .
Aislyn: How cool to have a front-row seat to that, you know, um . . .
Lindsey: In the rain.
Aislyn: In the rain. Yes. Yeah. A dry spot.
Lindsey: With, with rain, a dry spot, but full of rain. Um, but very poetic, you know, and I think, I think that was also part of it is like how, what, what, what does an opening ceremony Paris-style look like? And now we’ve seen this sort of artistic, kooky . . .
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . display of, of creativity and, um, and that’s something I don’t think I’ll ever forget.
Aislyn: Hmm. Very cool. I remember one of our coworkers, Tim, he, you know, grew up in, in London and he was talking about being there for the Olympics and he said, like leading up to it, everyone was just like, you know, bitching and complaining, and, and then on the day that things started, like, he was like, there was just this sense of goodwill.
People were looking at each other on the train, which they never do. And like, there was this connection. And I thought that was so, so interesting. Because it is a big burden on a city to ask it to take on something like that, on its citizens in particular. So, um, I’m glad that it was positive.
Lindsey: But you mentioned something, you mentioned something that actually has carried over so far into this early part of September, which is the, sort of, kindness, I guess, among, uh, among Parisians. And it, and it doesn’t come across necessarily with chattiness, but it’ll be more, more patience, smiling. Um, in the last week I’ve noticed that, you know, I’m, I’m willing to, I’ll, I’ll wait and hold a door for someone or I’ll smile at someone who looks at me on the, on the Metro and, and I feel like they’re inclined to respond.
And so we’re not yet back to this sort of, like, defensive, ornery attitude. And maybe that has nothing to do with the Olympics. Maybe it’s just that we’re not yet far enough into fall. But, um, but it, it feels pleasant because I know that’s what people were feeling during the entire Olympics period, was sort of just a wonderful sense of community and niceness and, and goodwill, like you say.
Aislyn: Yeah. Well, let’s hope it continues into the winter—for everyone’s sake. Um, well, I would love to kind of pivot into the things that you have gleaned over the years that you could share with travelers who are coming to both Paris and to France.
I think a big one that comes up a lot, and I’m thinking about this because I’m going to Japan next month, you know, etiquette, you know, like the things that you don’t know when you don’t live in a city when you aren’t from this country and you’re just, going along with how you live your life, what do you feel like, and there’s the kind of classic, like, American, loud travelers going to, to France.
But what do you think, maybe on a slightly more subtle level, people should know before making a, making a trek?
Lindsey: Well, I think etiquette is important insofar as salutations. Um, they don’t expect you to speak French or be able to put together a, a sentence necessarily, but you really do need to start with sort of the niceties. Um, and those are quite easy to master. Bonjour, ça va? Um, you know, asking some, if, if needed, some simple questions like where’s the bathroom, all of that.
But it’s important, because they take great pride in certain, um, certain exchanges, um, particularly when you go into a shop, um, a restaurant. And if you’re going to ask a question, you know, you don’t start, you don’t launch into something. You have to start by greeting them. You say, “Bonjour. Yes, I have a question. Où se blah blah blah blah blah.”
Um, you know, and, and, and the, the sort of tension comes when someone thinks they can, you know, because it works in their country, they can just sort of, with a smile start asking a question without having said hello first. And that seems like such a, like, maybe a superfluous step. But for them, it’s very important.
Um, and it means you see them, you respect them. They’re not just there for uh, to help you in some sort of transaction or service. Um, and, and then you know, there’s the etiquette when it comes to tipping, which sounds like, um, you know, which everyone gets into a bit of a tizzy about. But what I will say is that the standard, um, what, what, what is presented to you when you get a bill . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . is, is what they call service complete.
But it is, it is essentially a, it is not tip. It is a “service compris” that is, you know, sort of roped in or woven into the final cost. Um, and people think that they need to leave what is customary in other countries. So, if we’re speaking about Americans in particular, they would try to leave, you know, 15, 18 percent on top of the bill.
And that is simply not necessary. I mean, of course, they’re going to be happy, but it isn’t necessary. And that is because the prices are already meant to include sort of a, like I said, that service charge, but also, um, the servers are getting paid a living wage and that is not the case we know in, in the U. S. service industry.
So, um, what we tend to say now is that if you’d like to leave a tip somewhere between 5five to 10 percent is completely acceptable. Um, if the experience was horrible, uh, or you were mistreated, like, do not leave anything. Um, and, and what we’re seeing more of now, um, in the last, I want to say only in the last couple of years, are restaurants that have a built-in option on their credit card machine to leave a digital tip.
Aislyn: Yes.
Lindsey: And, and it’s creating a little bit of confusion, I think, among Parisians because they see this and it’s presented as sort of an intermediary step and the person who hands them the machine is, kind of, not watching, but lingering.
Aislyn: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Lindsey: And so it’s this awkward, well what if I say no to the question of do you want to leave a tip?
Aislyn: Totally.
Lindsey: Um, Um, I think it’s, it’s in a lot of cases meant more for the foreign traveler. Um, I don’t think these establishments expect all Parisians to start, you know, adding significant amounts of tip. Um, but it, it, it happens enough now where, um, you know, it’s explained, uh, it’s still being explained a little bit when they first hand you the machine, like: Oh, it’s going to ask you if you want to do this.
You can say no. And you’re sort of like: Can I say no?
Aislyn: Yeah. Exactly.
Lindsey: Then it’ll propose, yeah, it’s not, it’s not the most comfortable feeling. Um, which is how I feel about when I go to the States and I’m ordering a coffee and everyone’s looking at the screen and you know. Um, but they’ll ask you, you know, and it’ll ask you, it will propose some standard amounts and then you can insert a custom amount, of course. So it’s happening. It’s still slow to develop. You may come and visit and, and not see it at all. But if you go to the establishments that, um have more of an international and local clientele—fun, you know, cocktail bars, small plates, uh, spots.Um, you’re going to see it a little bit more.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsey: And so you shouldn’t be surprised. Um, and you shouldn’t feel obligated. And if you still prefer to leave a couple of coins on the counter, you can do that too.
Aislyn: Okay. Cool. And if you did want to leave a digital tip, would you recommend like the 5, 10 percent is still like a completely customary.
Lindsey: Yes.
Aislyn: OK. OK.
Lindsey: I mean, um, there, there are still some Americans and I, and I have experienced this firsthand who physically recoil at the idea of leaving small, like, you know, such a small percentage because they are just so formatted by the American way. And so they will invariably leave more. And again, the, the person on the other end will be thrilled.
Um, but it is really not, um, needed or expected in the way that it is in the U.S. And by the same token, I think, you know, you, again, you leave a shop, you leave a restaurant, you say thank you upon leaving, and, and, and this is just sort of the, the, the bookend of the experience. The, the hellos, the goodbyes, and, you know, if that’s all you can manage in French, that’ll already be quite good.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, just a reminder to kind of acknowledge the person. For someone who does have a little bit more language under their belt, but falls into that, that circumstance where, you know, you, you try the French and then it comes back in English. How do you recommend handling, handling that dance?
Lindsey: I say, if you really just want to practice, just keep, keep speaking in French and they’ll keep speaking back to you in English. I mean, it’s frustrating, but, um, I always joke that I think they’re just less patient than the Italians who are blown away by anybody who can even attempt to speak a full Italian sentence, which is what happens to me every time I try to speak Italian.
There’s just like this level of encouragement that is so . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . uplifting and that is not really what you can get here. But if you want to, just keep, just keep doing it.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: Just keep speaking. I think the people who, you know—even the people who live here who are trying to improve their French—they get so destabilized by that.
And I, and I think you could also just say in French, you could say: I’m really trying to learn, can we please speak in French?
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsey: And if they don’t want to play, you know, play ball, then that’s on them. But you, you’ve tried and you’ve tried to make it a formal request. Um, and I think usually when you take that extra step, they are, they understand better.
They understand why you’re insisting. Um, and they’re a little bit more amenable.
Aislyn: That makes sense. And I think there is also, I mean, from my perspective, just the being respectful of like, are they busy? What’s going on?
Lindsey: Sure.
Aislyn: Like, you know, some people, like, if they just want to get a transaction done so they can move on to the next person. I’m like, ah, that’s not maybe when we should be pressing her.
Lindsey: One hundred percent. Pick your, pick your moments.
Aislyn: Yes. Someone who has time and availability. Oh there’s my, my cat, um. Yes, he’s a very, very loud, um, loud guy. So sorry.
Lindsey: So cute.
Aislyn: He’ll settle down. I might have to put him in my lap, but, um, OK, great. OK. All right. Hang on one second. This is the only way that he will be quiet. Um.
Lindsey: Good boy.
Aislyn: Anything else that you would recommend?
I mean, there’s the kind of fashion question, but I feel like that’s . . .
Lindsey: Like what to wear?
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think there’s a, you know, don’t wear the running shoes maybe. But . . .
Lindsey: Right, but there’s the trendy sneaker, which is basically the default, default footwear style in France for the last, I don’t know, 12 years. It’s very casual. I mean, that’s the thing. Uh, going out in Paris is very casual. I mean, with the exception of, you know, a Michelin starred or two, uh, restaurant and, um, gosh, maybe some of these left bank, you know, see-and-be-seen. You know . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . I’m gonna say that again. Some of these scene-y places, you know, where people want to get dressed up. But that’s fewer and fewer, um today.
Aislyn: Oh, interesting.
Lindsey: Um, so, you know, a nice pair of jeans and something nice on top. Um, you know, but there’s a difference between wearing Hoka sneakers and, you know, a Veja . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . more city-appropriate shoe.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah.
Lindsey: But heels, like high heels, who even bothers anymore? I mean, truly, unless you’re taking a cab from door to door. Um, no one, really wears them anymore. Um, certainly not a high heel. Um, boots, you know, trendy boots, low, low boots. Um, all of that is, is, is completely fair.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: Um, and, and what I will say is that it is completely acceptable to exercise in public, which wasn’t the case when I moved.
Aislyn: Yeah. Haha.
Lindsey: People wouldn’t be caught dead wearing exercise gear.
Aislyn: Oh, wow.
Lindsey: Or athleisure, right? So that has changed quite a bit.
Aislyn: Interesting.
Lindsey: Um, so if you’re like: Oh, I’m not going to go running in Paris. Absolutely go running in Paris.
Aislyn: OK. Yeah.
Lindsey: You know, ride a bike. You’re a big cyclist. Do that in Paris. Wear your spandex. It’s fine.
Aislyn: OK. OK.
Lindsey: Just maybe don’t go out for lunch in it after.Right? Like that’s going to be the thing. You have to then get into . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: . . . regular clothes if you’re going to go out and about.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah. OK.
Lindsey: Mingling.
Aislyn: Don’t do the athleisure brunch. Essentially.
Lindsey: The whole leggings all day thing is . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: It doesn’t. It will raise some eyebrows.
Aislyn: OK. OK. No, that’s great. Those are great tips. Um, well, it’s such a big city, you know, I know that you couldn’t possibly tell everyone where to go and what to do, but what are some of the things right now that you would either love to take someone to if they’re coming to visit? Could be food, could be something to do, or something that you think people should really, you know, invest in experiencing?
Lindsey: Well, what I like to say is that Paris is set up in such a way that you can really, if let’s say you have three or four days, you can really, you know, break each day down into one particular area and you can cover quite a lot of ground. If you’re going to say one day is going to be the left bank, and you’re going to focus on, you know, go between, I don’t know, the area around the bull marché [the financial district] and then go over to Les Dessous du Panthéon and walk along the river. I mean these are all things you can do and map out in, in, in a very easy way.
And I would say do that, but also make sure if you’re only here for a few days, that some of those neighborhoods are around, uh, Eastern Paris. So, you know, the Canal Saint-Martin and, and where that leads, which is to the La Villette, where there’s another body of water and there are cafés and activities along there.
Um, Belleville, I mean, I’m, I’m excited. My dad is coming to visit in November and I cannot wait to take him to some of my favorite spots up in, up in Belleville, which he doesn’t know. I mean, he’s come so infrequently and when he is here, you know, he has this sort of agenda, but this time, you know, he’s like, it’s just me.
Bring me to your favorite spots.
Aislyn: Oh, that’s so cool.
Lindsey: You know, so I’m going to take him to Le Cheval d’Or, which is a restaurant I absolutely love, which is in Belleville. It’s an international team. The chef is Filipino Australian and he’s cooking this absolutely incredible mashup of, sort of, French and Chinese.
Aislyn: Wow.
Lindsey: In a way that is, sort of makes you want to rethink the word “fusion” because it’s actually a good thing and it’s respectful in the way it’s done and it’s inventive and the flavors are incredible.
I’d take him for coffee up there. I would take him to the Butchomont Park, which he’s never seen before. Um, you know, there’s, up in the 18th, there’s La Petite Ceinture, which is sort of this disaffected railway that has become, um, kind of a preserved hangout. You can walk along this section of, of the tracks.
And then there’s a, a big restaurant café where they also do upcycling called La Recyclerie, which is there.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsey: You know, there are these different corners of Paris that give you a completely different experience. And so if that’s something you’re interested in, getting a mix of like your favorite place the last time you came and then also something that reflects a side of Paris you don’t know as well, you can really mix and match in that way.
Um, and the canal is just always fun. I love seeing the variety of people lingering on a weekend on both sides of the canal and, um, where they go to eat, where they go to drink after. Um, so take the time to, you know, at least incorporate some neighborhood you’ve experienced less.
Aislyn: Yeah. Absolutely. And it sounds like those are all outside of, kind of, the primary tourist bubble.
Lindsey: I mean, there, you do, you do see tourists, of course. Um, the Canal Saint Martin especially has become, you know, far more, um, visible on the tourist itinerary, but it is not by any means like walking through the Marais, for example.
Aislyn: Yeah. Haha.
Lindsey: Um, and yet it’s not super far. I mean, these are all 15-, 20-minute walks from each other.
Um, and, and Belleville, I think, is just very special, and there’s a lot that you can do up there, eating, you know, more traditional Chinese food, there are cocktail bars, there are bookstores, there are art galleries. I mean, this is, this is a thriving neighborhood, um, that has a lot to offer, and, and, and also gives you great views over the city. If you take, uh, if you get off, um, at the Metro Pyrénées or Jourdain and you’re sort of higher up on the hill and you get this amazing view.
And at one point you can even see the Eiffel Tower from afar. So it’s quite . . .
Aislyn: Wow.
Lindsey: It gives you a different perspective on the city.
Aislyn: Yeah. How cool. And you’d mentioned, you know, so many more bike lanes. Um, that’s something that you can do. Is, I can’t remember, does Paris have a bike sharing program? Like, is that something that’s pretty easy to do?
Lindsey: They do, they have the Vélib bikes and then they have Lime bikes, which you can, you know, you have an app and you can get, um, but the, the Vélibs are, obviously the complaint sometimes is that they’re often out of order. So, you know, the city needs to get on that, but they have the, um, regular version or the electric version.
Um, green and blue. Um, and so they’re all scattered all throughout the city and you can download the app to make sure you know how to pick it up, drop it off, even reserve a parking spot if, if it’s available. So, you know, it’s, um, it’s, it’s quite seamless and people are using them.
Aislyn: Oh, great. OK. Um, and you shared some, you know, fantastic suggestions for food and drink. What have you seen in terms of kind of like, if you were to paint a portrait of Paris as a whole, culinarily speaking, what might you say? How has it changed and what’s exciting?
Lindsey: I think what feels really exciting now is that the foreign chef has been kind of pivotal in, in shaping, um, French food or the Parisian bistro, the neo bistro in the last 10 years. Um, and the more, immigrant cuisines have taken longer to sort of affirm their, their role in the landscape. And by that, I mean, there was sort of a dialing down of flavors.
There was a flattening of some of their, their traditions. Um, if you think about Paris’s heritage, um, or Paris’s history with Chinese immigration and North African immigration and West African immigration, these individuals, when they came and started setting up businesses, tried to basically, you know, fit in.
And so one of the conversations I had recently with someone, um, who’s a French Vietnamese food consultant was that when he thought about how his parents had to adapt when they came—this was a time when, you know, if you’re going to open a restaurant and the French are not, you know, sort of the French tended to blend all of the Asian cuisines together.
And so you’d have all these restaurants that would do Vietnamese and Chinese and a bit of Japanese and, you know, that appears very strange, but they weren’t going to fight it because they were like, I’m here to survive. I need to blend in. I’m not going to rock the boat. And now, finally, with the sort of second and third generation, um, from immigrant backgrounds, they are doing what I think other cities have done much faster and maybe much more successfully, thinking of L.A., thinking of London in some respects, about really having, really affirming these culinary traditions. And so you’re starting to see that even institutions like Lao Siam, which is a, an amazing Thai Laotian place in Belleville, actually, um, when the three sons took over from their parents, you know, they sort of overhauled the menu and dialed it down to what they felt were, you know, more essential dishes, less tangential, less sort of catering to other tastes.
Aislyn: Yeah. Interesting.
Lindsey: Um, and then their second establishment, which is called Amma Siam, which is fantastic, is all the, all the types of dishes that they ate at home as kids, which was not necessarily, exclusively Thai or Laotian. And, and it’s a much more modern dining experience and they pair it with natural wine.
Aislyn: Cool.
Lindsey: And, and so there’s sort of this moment of saying, all of this, all of these culinary traditions can coexist and we do not need to flatten them for a local dining audience because they feel spice is not acceptable or these flavors are not acceptable.
This is, this is what the cuisine is. And it comes at a time, obviously when the local population is hungry for this. They want the, the real stories and they want the real culinary experiences. And so I think that’s quite exciting that we have, you know, the best neo bistros, these amazing classic restaurants that are getting updated as well.
And then we have this, you know, some of the best, you know, North African, Chinese, Vietnamese food. Um, and, and it’s bolder in the way that it should have always been.
Aislyn: Yeah. I love that. How fun. I mean, sad that it took time, but glad that it’s finally happening,
Lindsey: But this is the trajectory with, you know.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: I think France, uh, by and large and their former colonies and that relationship to immigration as well. I mean, this is, this is part of a much bigger story and conversation. And, and I think the, that relationship looks very different in a place like the U.S. I think. Every, every country is going to have its own sort of version or, or variation on this theme, but certainly France’s particular history with these cultures has been more fraught and so the fact that it’s taken this long is maybe more of a symptom of France’s own issues with acceptance and, and the past that they need to acknowledge. Um, so this is still a great place to, you know, to eat classic food, but it’s also an amazing place for all sorts of cuisines.
And I think that’s, that’s what makes it so exciting as a global capital because this was never a place that was meant to cater to just, you know, French-focused tastes, you know? I mean, this is one of the most visited cities in the world and attracts talent from all over the world. And so as a result, you have all sorts of influences.
And it’s important. I think that, that, that shines and I think there’s really a um, a confidence in that now.
Aislyn: Yeah. OK. All right. Well, I know where I’m going to go next time I visit. Uh, well, I’d love to talk quickly about your second book, The New Parisian: The Women and Ideas Shaping Paris. ’Cause you featured more than 40 women who, I’m going to, this is kind of reading from the, I think the book jacket, but “who challenged the oversimplified archetype of the Parisian and reveals Paris as a blossoming cultural center of feminine power.”
I mean, that’s like, that’s quite an impressive statement. I’m just curious to know, so this was published in 2020. How have you seen that evolve, continue? Like, have you continued to see women come to power in that way and work on shaping?
Lindsey: Absolutely. Absolutely women are are crucial to sort of this, um, not just the future of Paris, but crucial to what France is going to look like moving forward and we see that in in the political space, um, you know, with some of the, the candidates, um, even in the most recent legislative and, um, parliamentary elections who we got to know for the first time, who are bold and opinionated and, um, with, with, with great ideas who will probably have a more, uh, visible role moving forward.
Um, you see that in the arts for sure, and you see that in, uh, in food in a big way. Um, that doesn’t mean it’s been nothing but acceptance because that would be untrue. I mean, even, um, Michelin is notoriously still behind on, you know, really sussing out the women who deserve to be considered for, you know, recognition.
And, you know, they always have some excuse as to why there aren’t more women nominated or, or featured. And, you know, it’s, it’s sort of, you know, an excuse that just doesn’t, it doesn’t land anymore. Um, but the, the difference now is that women are really vocal about it and the activist groups in all sorts of areas.
I mean, activism is a big word. I mean, it could be just sort of mild social media activism to being in the streets and trying to fight for things, but whether that’s in the food world or in the arts or in social justice, I mean, this is, this is a city that is, you know, really not about holding back in any way. And that’s, that’s for sure always been true.
But I think, you know, since the Me Too movement and, and even more since COVID, I think we’ve, we’ve seen that in a big way. And I think it’s because once it’s sort of let out, you can’t put that, you know, the voice back in the box.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Do you think that that is very different? Do you think it’s kind of on a similar trajectory as it has been in the United States? Or do you think it’s a little bit different because obviously the cultures are different?
Lindsey: I would say that there are moments where it aligns quite a bit. Um, when during COVID the reaction was part of the global reaction to George Floyd and, and racial issues. And I think it is a testament to the way we’re organizing online and during a time when everybody was at home, you had nothing but time, in theory to, to, you know, educate yourself on a lot of issues.
And so what you saw was this outpouring, um, a reaction to frustration, to rage, to anger. Um, but that also is handled constructively as well. And so I think there’s been a lot more organizing in the years since then. Um, and, and I think people just, women especially, just want to be taken seriously. If they say something has happened, if they say this is, you know, this is a barrier to us, you know, it needs to be treated as seriously as it is.
And I think the, that’s what we’re fighting for now. It’s not that these things, it’s not sort of revealing that all these, challenges exist, but it’s saying like: OK, now what are we doing about them? And so you have loads of vocal women and active women who get people involved in the way they feel comfortable getting involved. But it’s, it’s constantly being talked about.
And I think just the sheer fact that we have a dialogue, an endless dialogue about some of these issues, means that we’ve come a long way in the last six to seven years.
Aislyn: Very cool. All right. Well, I can’t wait to see what happens next. Very last question for you. This wasn’t on the list that I sent to you, but it popped into my head. But any, so for someone who’s planning a trip or just, you know, loves Paris/France in general, are there any books, podcasts, movies that you would recommend aside from yours? That you think are really, you know, wonderful just as a setting the tone or learning something new?
Lindsey: Oh, yes. Um, for a food book, there’s a, there’s a food book that just came out called Amuse Bouche by Carolyn Boyd. She’s a British writer, um, and has written for on, on travel themes, um, for much of her career. Um, and this book breaks down essentially 200 something, um, little vignettes and food specialties from all over France’s regions. Um, and so if you’re someone who likes the idea of traveling based on food and based on gastronomy and have very particular interests, if it’s seafood, if it’s, you know, cassoulet or some dish. Um, she gives history and stories and anecdotes and, and I think it’s a really interesting way of, um, documenting, you know, France by food.
Um, so it’s called Amuse Bouche and, and, and, and quite, quite new. Um, podcasts, sorry, I don’t mean to like . . .
Aislyn: No, no, I know. I, I sprung it on you.
Lindsey: Um, I’d say what seems to be more, um, sort of a better platform for, um, for what’s happening might be Substack actually. So the newsletter option.
Aislyn: Oh, interesting.
Lindsey: Um, so I have one, but there’s, you know, Paris by Mouth, which is pure food and restaurant reviews and restaurant, uh, insights and anecdotes.
You know, what’s open in August? What’s open on a Sunday? You know, the, this is sort of like a very interesting reference to have and to have access to. David Leibovitz, you mentioned, is a, is a, an excellent resource as well. Um, there are others in French which aren’t going to help a wide enough set of the population.
Um, but I would also say, you know, on, on food, uh, If you’re going to be traveling outside of Paris and aren’t sure where to, you know, sort of look for restaurants, Le Fooding has, um, in their repertoire, plenty of reviews and listings for other cities. So I often use it if I’m going to be in, I don’t know, let’s say Nantes or Marseille or some other area.
I mean, search by there, by, by the destination, and it’ll come up with the reviews that they’ve most recently, uh, covered and I think that’s a good at least it gets you in the right direction. It’s a good gauge.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Lindsey: It won’t steer you wrong.
Aislyn: Great. Thank you. Thank you so much for it. We’ll link to those in the show notes, but I appreciate you taking the time and just sharing your vast expertise with us.
Lindsey: Well, thank you. This is, this is a delight and I really hope people keep coming. The Olympics may be over but Paris is still thriving in, in a thousand other ways.
Aislyn: Amazing. All right. I’m sure everyone’s booking a flight right now.
And that was Lindsey Tramuto. In the show notes, we’ve linked to her website, her books, The New Paris and The New Parisienne, as well as her podcast, The New Paris [Podcast], in the show notes. I’ve also linked to some of the stories she’s written for Afar over the years. Is there a destination you’d like us to explore through a local’s eyes? Email us at unpacked@afar.com. And don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast newsletter, Behind the Mic—the link is in the show notes.
Next week, we’ll be back with an exploration of the hotels that are luring travelers with promises of a better night’s sleep.
Ready for more unpacking? Visit afar.com, and be sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter. The magazine is @afarmedia. If you enjoyed today’s exploration, I hope you’ll come back for more great stories. Subscribing makes this easy! You can find Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. And be sure to rate and review the show. It helps other travelers find it. We also want to hear from you: Is there a travel dilemma, trend, or topic you’d like us to explore? Drop us a line at afar.com/feedback or email us at unpacked@afar.com.
This has been Unpacked, a production of AFAR Media. The podcast is produced by Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland. Music composition by Chris Colin.
And remember: The world is complicated. We’re here to help you unpack it.
