On this episode of Unpacked, seasoned solo traveler and Afar audio engineer, Nicolle Galteland shares the ins and outs of solo travel. She chats with Pamela Holt, the host of TV show, Me, Myself and the World: The Art of Solo Travel, about overcoming barriers to solo travel (especially for women) and how to lean into the benefits of a solo trip.
Then Brook Kelly, a Bonderman Travel Fellowship advisor, who has helped hundreds (including Nicolle) have safe and meaningful trips, shares personal anecdotes and practical tips to plan for the unexpected, clarify your values and ease the concerns of loved ones.
Transcript
Aislyn: I’m Aislynn Greene and this is Unpacked, the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel each week. And this week we are talking solo travel: why people do it, how to be safe and confident as a solo traveler, and how to help your loved ones quit worrying about you. Unpacked engineer Nikki Galteland is a solo traveler herself. When she was 21, she got a fellowship that actually required a minimum of eight months of solo travel and took her all around the world.
In this episode, Nikki talks with two other incredible solo travelers: Pamela Holt, who is the host of the TV series Me, Myself, and the World: The Art of Solo Travel, and Brook Kelly, a solo traveler who for many years was the adviser for the Bonderman Travel Fellowship at the University of Washington. Brook advised Nikki through her fellowship travel back in the day and has now helped hundreds of people have safe and meaningful solo trips. They both share some fun stories and great advice. So let’s get into it.
Nikki: Hi, Pamela, welcome to Unpacked! Can I ask you to start by please just introducing yourself with who you are and what you do?
Pamela: Hi, I’m Pamela Holt, and I’m the host and executive producer of Me, Myself, and the World: The Art of Solo Travel, and I am a solo traveler.
Nikki: I love it. What was your first-ever solo trip?
Pamela: I started solo traveling when I was 19 years old. I took my first trip to Japan, and I was there for a couple of months. Oh my, for me, it was so exciting to be on my own and to really discover. Now, I had been to Japan with my family. I started traveling internationally when I was 13, and that’s when I caught the travel bug.
I actually remembered the distinct moment I was at Jimmy’s [Kitchen] restaurant, I think on [the] Kowloon side in Hong Kong, and I was taking a sip of French onion soup, and I remember thinking, this is what I want to do in life. And I locked in very quickly. And then I got the opportunity at 19 to travel to Japan and work. And I had the best time.
Nikki: That is so cool. So why is solo travel in particular important to you?
Pamela: I loved solo travel. I love the freedom and independence, but things really changed for me in my mid-thirties. I was in a car accident, [a] pretty traumatic car accident that nearly left me immobilized. And I swore to myself that if I recovered, when I recovered, I was going to really live life to the fullest.
And I started already making plans in recovery of what I was going to do. And I made an 80-by-50 promise to myself that I would go to 80 countries by the time I was 50. And I did. I landed in Bhutan on my 50th birthday. I took myself on a seven-and-a-half-week solo trip. I called it my golden jubilee.
Nikki: Amazing.
Pamela: And it was really, it was on that trip that I had the light-bulb moment.
Hey, I’ve worked in film and television. I know how to create a show and I love solo travel. That’s when I came up with the idea of creating Me, Myself, and the World: The Art of Solo Travel. So many people came to me, especially in and around that trip and said, oh my gosh, you’re solo traveling for seven and a half weeks.
You’re going to be alone. You’re going to be this, you’re going to be that. All the fears that people have about solo travel. And I could not only tell them, not only show them all my pictures, I could show them in living color on a TV show. And so I went back six months later with a camera crew and myself and one cameraman and we filmed, we filmed it all ourselves, sometimes having up to six cameras.
Nikki: Very cool. I love that. I want to bring you back a little bit to some of the fears or worries about solo travel that people express to you. What kinds of things do you feel like you hear most often?
Pamela: Yeah, one of the biggest ones is, I’m going to be alone. Well, that’s pretty hard to do these days with about, what, 8, 9 billion people in the world. You just meet so many great people everywhere you go. A smile opens almost every door in, in this world. It, it breaks down barriers because you’re connecting with people and that’s what they’re looking for too. And sometimes it’s another solo traveler. Sometimes it’s somebody who, a local, who lives there.
And so that simple fear of being alone is one of the biggest things I hear and the, the way to get over that fear, the way to stop that is just simply a smile or a hello. I learned hello in I don’t even know how many languages because that simple hello, again, breaks the ice. I think for a lot of people, guys and girls, believe it or not, I mean girls and guys, is the fear of safety. What I tell a lot of people, I have a lot of little anecdotes, in particular—trust your gut. We have an instinct, pay attention to that. It’s really wonderful to be polite and to be kind, but there’s also a line, and if your gut is telling you something’s wrong, listen to it, be polite, and move on. The other thing is to, something that I actually tell people in terms of that fear, I will say, if you think someone’s following you, this is guy or girl, turn around, look them straight in the eye and go, How you doing?
Do with a little bit of, you know, gusto. That “How you doing?” actually, believe it or not, is 1: “How you doing?” 2: I see you. 3: I can identify you. And 4: I have a feeling you’re following me, and that literally takes a target off your back. You’ve turned on them, you no longer have a target, and they don’t want to mess with you because you’re just too much trouble.
You can freak out later, if you’re nervous. So, one of the fears, like you said, is being alone. The other one is safety.
And I think the last one, believe it or not, somebody brought this up to me, is the fear of your own thoughts. You are left to be with yourself, to entertain yourself, you often run a lot of things through your head, things that are going on back home, things in your past, worries of your future when you’re solo traveling. You do have a lot of time to think and, I think instead of looking at that as a fear, it’s a really good time for self-discovery.
It’s a really good time to journal and say, Hey, what thoughts are running through my head? What thoughts are holding me back? What are those fears? And jot them down. And maybe as you go along on your trip, you’ll see less and less of those fears and a great time to conquer them. There is no failing in life.
There’s only learning. So feel the fear and do it anyway.
Nikki: Awesome. It sounds like your parents are quite supportive of travel. Did you ever run into the experience where someone was like, trying to talk you out of a trip? Like, Oh no, that one’s too dangerous, or . . .
Pamela: Oh my gosh.Yes, yes. I can’t even tell you how many women are like, oh no, don’t do that, oh you, oh you can’t do that, oh you, and then fill in the blank as to why you can’t do that. And one by one, I have turned all those women. And there’s one woman in particular. She just couldn’t believe that I would solo travel or ever even want to. She didn’t understand the joy of solo traveling.
And I had gone on my 40th birthday on another big trip, and I’d gone to Peru and did Peru, Galápagos, the Amazon, the whole thing. And about five years later, she . . . I run into her and she goes, Oh, I’m going to my Peru. And I’m like, my first thought was: Wait, they’re gonna let you into Peru.
Like I don’t, I don’t know if they’re, this L.A. lady, are they going to let you in Peru? And then she goes, “Oh no, no, no, I’m not really going to Peru. I’m going to, to New Mexico. That’s my Peru.” And I’m trying to wrap my head around it as she’s saying, and she goes, “I would never wear jeans, cowboy boots, or wear turquoise. And, and those are the things that are, I’m scared of, and I’m going to go do all of that.”
And she had the time of her life in New Mexico. And that was her Peru. That was her solo trip to get over some sort of fear. And since then, she’s so far past New Mexico. She’s done Italy. Um, she’s done England, solo. And so she needed that first step into solo travel . . .
Nikki: Yeah!
Pamela: . . . really stepping outside of her culture and her comfort level.
Nikki: Yes, I love that idea of taking the step that’s right for you. Like, if that’s the thing that is gonna fulfill you and like, set you on this path, like, that’s great, right?
Pamela: Yeah, and I really have, I talk a lot about the steps of solo travel. I always recommend for a lot of women who are fearful of solo travel, start small, a day trip or a short getaway to a local destination, maybe two hours, three hours away, by boat, plane, car, whatever.
And then, go to another state. I’m here in Dallas right now. I said, go to Ventura, California. It’s like Malibu, but it’s not going to break the bank. And it’s that still quintessential, beach town. And then when you’re ready to move on, go to an, for Americans, go to an English-speaking country, like England or Australia, where you’re exposed to all this new stuff. You’re abroad for the first time.
But you at least have taken away that language barrier. And so getting around might be more comfortable. And then, last sort of step on the ladder of solo travel, head to a destination that is either very solo-travel friendly, like Bali, Indonesia. There’s just so many solo travelers.
Or head to a country that has an excellent transportation system, like Japan. Where anybody can get around that place. It’s . . . they’ve made it so user friendly. For, for English speakers, Japanese speakers obviously, and a few other, for sure anyone who speaks Chinese, and a few other languages. So that’s sort of the stepping, and then from there, you’re, you’re just gonna dive into the deep end, ’cause it’s, uh, solo travel is addicting.
Nikki: Yeah, absolutely. I love that.
Pamela: Something I also recommend is, if you want to solo travel but you’re nervous about it, do a group trip, a partner trip, a family trip, and either top or tail your trip as a solo traveler. I really like tailing the trip. So you’re with everyone, you’ve got your feet wet in that, in that culture, in that language, in that destination, and then stay an extra three or four days and be a solo traveler. You’ll be comfortable. You know where you are. You already have the money exchanged and got that down. And then let everyone fly home with all their luggage and meet them home in five days. And that’s a, yeah, that’s a really, top and tailing trips. Work trips too.
Nikki: Mm-hmm.
Pamela: I’ve really set out to redefine solo travel because people hear solo and they interchange it with the word alone. And I’m literally here telling people, nope, SOLO is actually an acronym that I’ve created: Seeking out life’s opportunities. SOLO—seeking out life’s opportunities. And that really opens the door of solo travel and moves it away from the iconic, uh, 20 year old with a backpack, just graduated college, or the 40-something year old, midlife-crisis person.
Seeking out life’s opportunities is for everyone at any time in their life who’s inquisitive about the world and wants to discover the world on their own terms. Just them, again, letting the wind blow them to their experiences.
Nikki: Nice. So, I totally agree that solo travel is special and can really help travelers connect with the people and places they visit. But sometimes things can get a little dicey. I understand you were once detained in Russia—tell me what happened there?
Pamela: Oh gosh, that was a fun one. OK, I have to be delicate in how I tell this story. So I met these wonderful girls. I had been in a restroom and I was at a bar, it was across the street from The Church Has Spilt Blood and it was called Mustangs at the time. And, I know. So I’m in the bathroom and I had some lip gloss and I was putting it on and there, you know, there’s always a line in the bathroom.
And these 12 girls looked at me as if I was holding, like, the golden ticket and I kind of looked around and it’s one of those you’re like, did you want to try this? So they all tried it and then they handed it back and I was like, I’m OK, I’m gonna let one of you guys keep that.
Nikki: Mm-hmm.
Pamela: And the girl I let keep it, I kept seeing her around and so we just were having fun and they kind of enveloped me in their little group, which was so nice to hang out with locals. And one night they said, “We’re going to take you to the local bars, but you know, we’re, we’re going to kind of make you incognito.” And maybe going a little bit out of the perimeters where most tourists were allowed.
This is, this is a while ago. This is like in 90 . . . late ’97, early ’98.
Nikki: OK.
Pamela: And so I saw french fries and I’m like, oh, let’s eat some french fries. So I bought french fries for everyone. It was nothing. But some of the comrades came by and they saw these particular girls eating french fries and they knew they could not afford french fries.
Certainly not all of them. And so they ended up throwing us up against the wall, like patting us down. And right before they came over, the girl comes up and she’s like, you, you don’t . . . you don’t, you can’t speak and you can’t hear. So we were faking it that I couldn’t speak or hear at all. And I can hear them all, like, kind of yelling at each other in Russian, but I have no idea what they’re saying.
And she can’t tell me in English. And right before they’re going to throw us in the car, they’re arresting us. I was like, no, this is my only chance. And I’m like, “I’ll buy you fries. I’ll buy you all the fries you want.” And they’re looking at me like, what is she saying? And they realized, suddenly, I’m not Russian.
And so she just quickly tells them like, “She’ll buy you anything. She’s got money.” And, and, and they were totally happy with me buying fries and then giving them like a $10 bill to buy fries for who knows the next two months. And so I bought my way out of prison with french fries.
Nikki: What a wild story. Oh my gosh. Well, good job. Good, quick thinking.
Pamela: Yeah, and I stayed friends with her; for the longest time we were pen pals.
Nikki: Oh, good. That’s lovely. How do you decide on the style of solo travel? From, like, backpacker hostel through five-star hotel? Like pampering to adventure spectrum? How do you decide those things?
Pamela: Yes, well, who doesn’t love luxury travel? But, I’m, I like to get my feet, uh, feet a little dirty actually. I want to talk with locals. I want to come home with stories. I want to be immersed in the culture. So I travel typically on the lower end and that’s not to do with budget. It’s to do with the experience and I actually love staying in hostels.
And the reason being is, hostels aren’t what they used to be. People think of these crazy hostels with 18 people in a room. And you can find that. But in those same hostels are maybe 5 to 10 single rooms. So you essentially have your own room, your own bathroom.
But you have this shared community area where you’re with other solo travelers. And you can unite and you can connect, which is the biggest thing everybody’s looking for. And I love that experience. When I’m staying in a hotel, I know that the whole hotel staff knows I’m alone in my room. And I don’t know, I don’t know anybody else at a hotel.
No one’s going to talk to me at the breakfast table, but at a hostel or even a shared community—and for example I was in Beijing. I don’t think I had stepped my big toe in the place and these two Scottish guys come right up to me and they’re like, are you the person with the, um, the, the single room with two beds? And I was like, I think so. I haven’t even checked in.
And they’re like, there’s a girl. There’s literally no place for her to stay. She’s already been here for a week and she has nowhere to go. Can she stay with you? And it’s kind of that moment you’re like, why not? Sure. Sure. She then in turn invited me to go to a place called Jinkao, which is a part of the Great Wall, that I had never heard of, I didn’t know it existed, and it’s the border of right where the real wall exists, not the wall that they’ve remade.
Like the actual Great Wall from thousands of years ago or whenever it was built. And I wouldn’t have had that experience if I hadn’t have said “yes and” to a fellow solo traveler needing something. And so that is why I love hostels. I could go on and on about the wonderful experiences, and there are also, a lot of them are removing the age restrictions because they realize that more solo travelers are 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 years old.
And in my series, Me, Myself, and the World. I interview a solo traveler in each episode. Some of them are 20, some of them are almost 80, actually. And also, we were talking about solo travel and redefining it. Solo doesn’t mean alone, and solo also doesn’t mean single. There’s a lot of people who have partners and they are still solo traveling because their partner either can’t, doesn’t want to, or doesn’t share the same interest. So hostels are definitely listening to their, their travelers and adjusting.
Nikki: Yeah, totally. Or even if your partner is interested in travel, there are some benefits of solo travel. You might choose to take separate trips anyway. Yeah.
Pamela: I was talking to a couple and they were going to, I think, England. And, you know, he’s sitting there rolling his eyes on all the things she wants to do. I’m like, wait a minute, you two just came to a solo travel lecture. Why don’t you go to England together and split up for three days. You get to go to all the sporting events and you get to go to the museums and go up to Blackpool and York.
And come back three days later and share in the stories, the passions that you loved. Because when you started dating, for them it was 50 years ago. When you started dating, you had separate passions and likes and you, you got to share them with each other and that ignited this relationship.
Go do that again. And they looked at each other like, wow, let’s do this. And so, there are so many reasons people solo travel.
Nikki: Absolutely. And now, tell me about your show. What can people expect when they tune in?
Pamela: Yes, I am so excited Me, Myself and the World really got out to the world. And as the title kind of says, the tagline, it’s all about the art of solo travel.
I go through Hanoi, Vietnam, and I get off the beaten path. I take a vintage Russian motorcycle all through the streets of Hanoi, which is, that was one of the best tours I’ve ever taken. And I have [a] really unique honor of introducing two veterans from opposite sides of the Vietnam War, 50 years later. And that importance of bridging the gap and connecting them so they can talk about their experience, it, for me, was so moving and so wonderful.
And then I do a lot of fun things. Pretty much everything I do in this series is about immersing yourself. And I interview either a solo traveler or a local in every episode. And I get to hear their perspective, their perspective about solo travel, why they solo travel, what they’ve learned from it, and how it’s changing them for the better.
Nikki: How did you pick Hanoi and the other locations that you feature in the show? It sounds like you had been to most of them before, is that right?
Pamela: Yes. So on my golden jubilee birthday, for my 50th birthday, I traveled to eight countries. And while I was there, I had that light-bulb moment of marrying this idea of solo travel, travel and my experience in film and television. And so of the eight countries, I kind of took note of, oh, who’s good on camera and where did I have the best immersive experiences and what would solo travelers, especially first-time solo travelers want to see in a show that features this. So I kind of cherry-picked the best experiences, but you know, something a lot of people say to me is like, how can you have a solo trip, a solo travel show, but you’re traveling with a crew.
It’s because I always walk the walk as a solo traveler and then return for this particular show, six months later with a camera crew. But I think the biggest takeaway about Me, Myself and the World and The Art of Solo Travel is people will see me solo traveling and realize, oh, this really is, it really is easy.
Nikki: Mm-hmm.
Pamela: You know, I hear so many people say, Oh, that’s such a foreign place to go. I’m like, yeah and for someone else, another woman, it’s her home.
Nikki: Mm-hmm.
Pamela: And she’s afraid to go to Los Angeles or New York. I said, but we all go to the grocery store, you know, by ourselves. We, we do all sorts of things by ourselves all day long.
And we’re going to be just fine when we travel to that, somebody else’s neighborhood.
I think redefining solo travel is probably my biggest takeaway. I watch people, I literally watch their face change when I first say this. Especially, it’s almost like you’ve handed them this ticket of permission, because they have this stigma around solo travel of being, again, being alone. Or like you don’t have any friends, so you have to solo travel. When really, it’s truly about seeking out life’s opportunities. And more importantly these days, seeking out connection.
Nikki: Yeah.
Pamela: And when you’re solo traveling, you have the opportunity to really connect with people.
And, I love that. I, I love the saying: It says traveling alone will be the scariest, most liberating, life-changing experience of your life. Dot, dot, dot. Try it at least once. But I say traveling solo will be the most liberating, life-changing experience of your life. Try it at least once.
And I think that, if that could be my message to everyone in the world, that and solo travel will change your life for the better.
Nikki: What a beautiful message to end on. Thank you so much.
Pamela: Thank you. Thank you for having me. And happy travels.
Nikki: Thanks, you too.
After the break, Brook Kelly with stories and advice to help any traveler feel safe and confident on their journey.
[Break]
Nikki: Hi, Brook, welcome to Unpacked. I’m so excited to talk with you—both because you are yourself an experienced solo traveler and because you’ve had the very unique experience of helping hundreds of people embark on long solo trips all over the world.
I should also say that that’s how we know each other. I was fortunate enough to be a Bonderman Fellow in 2012 and you were my advisor. Could you say just a little bit about what that is?
Brook: Yes. Yes. I mean what I would say about the Bonderman is it is an incredible fellowship at the University of Washington for undergraduate and graduate students.
And it is to travel. You are given money to travel around the world. There are some requirements. It is not totally no strings attached, but the idea is that the world has a lot to teach us and that when you are successful in a higher education environment, you might not always know all the different ways outside of the educational system to learn and be challenged and be educated.
And so going out into the world to experience difference, to experience other cultures that you’re not familiar with, um, can be as valuable a part of a life’s education as a degree. And so, I worked on that program for close to 20 years, um, and supported many different people, um, through preparing for and actually traveling all over the world.
Nikki: Yes, and you yourself got this fellowship as an undergraduate and then that’s also how we know each other because you advised me on my own trip way back in 2012. So, I really want to talk with you today about how solo travelers can feel confident and safe as they travel—and maybe even more difficult—how they can help their friends and family be confident that they’ll be safe. So, I imagine that you also talk with fellows quite often about family members and friends that might be nervous.
How common or uncommon would you say that was as an advisor to talk to people about those types of concerns?
Brook: Yeah, the, the bulk of my work was focused on the undergraduate side of the Bonderman Fellowship. So I will say, I think it’s important to recognize like, people are at different positions in their life. Like, not, not all undergrads are 21, 22 at the time of graduation and when they’re going on the fellowship.
But certainly that would probably be the majority of them. And so a little bit younger than maybe a graduate student or professional student, and maybe a little bit more connected to like parental figures or guardian figures. And so, I would say, you know, certainly more than half of the fellows that I worked with, it were explicit about talking with me about the concerns of family members and . . .
Nikki: Mmhmm.
Brook: . . . I would guess that almost everyone had to navigate that to some extent, whether or not they turned to me to help them brainstorm or talk about what that balance was or how to talk to those people in their lives. But I think certainly at least half the fellows I’ve worked with, have at least asked about it.
Nikki: Amazing. So can we just jump right in? What are a couple of the things that you have advised people over the years?
Brook: Yeah, I mean, the place I always start is it’s so individual, right? It’s about who you are as the traveler, and it’s about who the loved one, the person you’re trying to explain, what you want to do and why and why you feel good about it. And it’s also about the itinerary. Where are you going?
What are you, what are you proposing to do? Because how you talk to that loved one is going to be really different based on those factors. And I think, you know, doing some reflection on yourself about those three sort of factors and doing your research. And I’ve worked with all sorts of travelers, right?
And I tend to be a little bit more on the organized side of things. Like I like my spreadsheets. I like to do my research. Not everyone is like that and that’s fine. And with the fellowship, I never, we would never say like, you have to do a certain way of, of travel preparation, but I think the more preparation you can do when you have those types of concerns or people who are having questions, the more that you can show that you’re prepared and actually be prepared, the more that you’ll be able to alleviate those concerns.
And when they have questions, be able to answer them with confidence for yourself, and that will convince them, right? Because these are probably the people who know you best, so they’ll know when you’re faking it. They’ll know when you’re giving an off-the-cuff answer.
And so doing that work and being honest about like, I don’t have an answer to this, but here are the resources I’m looking at, or I have found these great websites or podcasts that give me advice on this, and so I’m doing that research now so I can be better prepared to address this question.That’s sort of my starting place with people of, of how to approach those concerns and questions.
Nikki: Yes, that makes so much sense. I like breaking it down into those three categories. That’s very, very helpful. What kinds of concerns would you say came up most often for people?
Brook: Yeah. There’s like a range of things, right? And it’s changed over time, right? As the world has changed. Um, in the earlier years, I think it was more about like, well, how am I going to stay connected? And . . .
Nikki: Mmhmm.
Brook: . . . how am I going to be in touch with people? And that now is like, frankly, less of a concern because it’s so possible to stay so connected and I actually think that that it sort of turned the corner to be that, like that is more problematic of like how do you disconnect from technology that allows you to stay connected to home always, and create boundaries and space and, and, and ride that line of like, I’m being communicative.
I’m helping my people feel good about this and I’m taking care of myself, but I’m also giving myself space to be where I’m at. So, so that’s my, like, tangent off into the technology.
Nikki: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Brook: I think also, like, one of the perennial concerns is sort of identity based, like whatever the identity of the traveler is, you know, it’s like, are you a woman traveling solo?
Are you a person of color traveling in a place where, um, you will have a different identity from the majority? Are you an LGBTQ+ person? Like what are those identities that are, you’re carrying with you, or in the country that you’re traveling to that you’ll be perceived to have, whether or not those are things that you feel strongly, as being a part of your identities.And then how do you proceed that way?
You know, I would say in terms of one of the stories that really stands out to me from the past is, um, a solo, female traveler who really was excited to go to India, but everybody she talked to in her family and friend group was like very dramatically: It’s so scary to go there as a woman.
You shouldn’t travel there as a woman alone. And, and, you know, we really don’t think you should go. She was hearing all these messages. And so we had some conversations where I was like, well, I’m not going to force you to go, if you’re really terrified to go there, you know, you said you wanted to go.
So let’s think back about why you were excited and what could you do to make yourself feel good about going there and that would also help the people that are asking these questions and saying these things to you feel good. And she did so much research that by the, she was like, I feel so prepared and so excited.
Like by the time I did my research and then, like, essentially put together a PowerPoint presentation for her family and gave it to them about all of the things she learned, all her preparations, um, she was like, I, it has reignited my excitement to go. So I think that those that that identity piece is like thinking about, like, you know, how real are these concerns because a lot of them, there are things you that you have to be aware of, you have to be aware of the identities you carry and how they’ll be perceived and how you’ll balance that.
And there are some places that might not be as safe to travel in alone or as comfortable. Thinking about how you would want to manage that or balance that. So, those are the ones that, like, stick out the most that have been sort of perennial concerns, um, and then I think the other thing is just like, well, what will happen if something goes wrong?
That’s the other big question that I think a lot of people, like family, loved ones carry is like, well, what’s the plan?
Nikki: Uh-huh.
Brook: What is the emergency plan? And you know, this, the travel that I have supported for so long is rooted in a fellowship program in a university that has sort of some infrastructure to support you. But also you’re still, even with that infrastructure to support you, you’re still the person by yourself on the other side of the world. Right? And so you can call the insurance line and you can call me in the middle of the night here in the United States, but like, I’m not going to be there to like, cast your broken leg, you know, like you, you have to also like, do some thinking, about how you will get support in the place you’re in.
And so like, really understanding emergency services in the location where you’re at. Like understanding where and what types of healthcare are available. Understanding sort of like are you doing something more remote and risky and like should you be carrying a sat phone? Is a sat phone even legal in the country where you’re in? You know, like there’s, there’s questions like that to work out for yourself that’s very dependent on what you’re proposing to do.
Nikki: Yeah, that makes so much sense. I was thinking back on when I was traveling in that, medical insurance, including emergency evacuation was part of what we did to prepare, um, and make sure that we had. I was wondering, has any of the sort of, like, precautionary, like that infrastructure that fellows are traveling with now. Has any of that changed since 2012?
Brook: Um, yes, I’m sure.
Nikki: I’m sure it has, but like, I’m wondering if there’s any other examples?
Brook: Yeah. The insurance, there’s still an insurance requirement and, I mean, this is also part of aging. Like when I was 21, I was like, insurance, what? Like, I don’t, I mean, so I totally like, like my, as I’ve gotten older and I have children now, I’m like, yes, I, if I did a big international solo or like family trip, I would have travel insurance.
Because I, I just think that I am a person who likes a backup. I like the reassurance, um, and I have seen enough people need to use it that it’s like useful, right? And so the insurance policy still exists and the requirement to have, uh, insurance, um, is still there. Um, I would say the things that have changed probably since you is, uh, since you were a fellow is that the, I would say there’s more structured orientation and preparation, um, which is like sort of the story.
I mean, I think like, everything has become more structured and robust, and we’ve learned a lot, and like, we have really made a more robust orientation plan, um, that is more comprehensive of the wide range of services, um, and issues that people encounter, and I would say one of the big things that we probably didn’t spend a huge amount of time being exposed to explicit about when you were a fellow is talking about mental health and and emotional health and how to do work here before you go, in your home, to build your strategies, your capacity, your network of how to deal with difficult situations you’ll encounter and just the feelings that you encounter when traveling solo of otherness, of dislocation, of self-questioning . . .
Nikki: Mm-hmm.
Brook: . . . of, um, of freedom and fear simultaneously, like how to prepare yourself so that you have a solid foundation to build off of, um, when you’re traveling. Um, so I think that’s probably something that’s probably become much more robust because it’s become more much, much more of a open, prevalent, robust conversation in our culture in that intervening time.
Nikki: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s a wonderful point. You mentioned that you’ve seen people need to use things, like their travel insurance, emergency backup plans. Do you think people are generally pretty accurate in how they estimate the risk related to travel? Do you see people coming in more often, like over- or underestimating at all?
I know it’s probably really hard to make, like, a general statement. You’ve seen so many different travelers in so many different situations, but . . .
Brook: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s a great question. I don’t think I have like a, a neat buttoned up answer for it. People always surprise me, right? Like people that I’m like, oh, they seem like a cool cucumber. They seem like they’ll handle it. And then like what rattles them is very different from what I would expect.
And then someone who’s like a little less, like, had a little less independent life experience where I’m like, Oh, they seem like they could be rattled a little bit more. They’ll be like, oh, this happened and I dealt with it. And you know, like, so like, in some ways that delights me. ’Cause I’m like, I love that people can always surprise me when I’ve been doing it this long.
I do think there is an over-reliance on technology. And I think like an expectation from, like, sort of American-based people, that the level of technology and access to the internet and services will be the same everywhere.
Brook: One of the things that has always been true, but yeah, continues to strike me is it’s like the single point of failure idea, right? Where it’s like, people are like, but I had my phone and I had all the phone numbers and I had my flight information. It’s like, and then my phone broke or the internet was cut off in the country I’m traveling in, because I’ve worked with a fellow that, that has happened to where it’s like, no, there’s literally no internet in the whole country.
So now your phone is like a nice, like, paperweight. Um, and so, so, like, what are your backup plans? Like, do you have a little notebook with, like, the key things you need written down?
Nikki: Mm-hmm.
Brook: Do you know a person’s phone number that you could call? Or, like, how to make an international call if you don’t have internet and, like, internet calling?
Like, those are the sorts of things that I think now are much more common things that lots of people don’t, just don’t anticipate being an issue that could be a really big problem.
Nikki: Yeah. That makes so much sense. I was thinking, the only place that I traveled on the Bonderman Fellowship that I’ve returned to since was Tajikistan. And just in the intervening years, it’s so different. Like, when I was there originally, there was, like, Google Maps was not really helpful. Like it was just not a thing that you could do.
Um, and then when I went back during grad school, like I had a Tajik sim and was able to like be way up in the mountains looking at maps and getting all sorts of information. But yeah, it just changes so quickly.
I know phones can be sort of a risky single point of failure, but has just, like, being connected on the phone helped with people’s anxieties overall? Like, have you found that family and friends are, like, a little more relaxed now that there’s an expectation that they’ll have a little more contact, maybe?
Brook: I think so. Yeah, I think that’s generally probably true. Um, and I, I think when you set good, um, expectations and boundaries, knowing that you can change them, right?
Nikki: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brook: I’m like, if you start traveling and you told your mom that you would call her every day, and then you’re like . . .
Nikki: Oh my gosh.
Brook: . . . that’s not realistic, actually.
And it’s really ruining my experience. Um, um. But, um, I worked with someone not that long ago whose negotiation with their parent was, I will send you one emoji a day. Haha.
Nikki: I love that.
Brook: I just want to like something so that, you know, I’m fine. And I, it could be a monkey ’cause I saw a monkey today, or it could be something totally random just as a check-in, but I don’t have to do the mental thought and like emotional investment of like, what do I say to my mom? What do I say to this, my boyfriend, you know, how do I, like, curate this for the person that I am sending it to and the conversation I want to have right now. But just keeping it a little lower key, which I think is, I was like very amused and impressed by that strategy.
Nikki: It can be very draining to try to like constantly reassure people that you’re OK and things are fine and like maybe you’re having a hard day and don’t really want to talk about it in that moment and yeah.
Brook: Yes. I found in my experience that calling was more emotionally difficult.
Nikki: Mm-hmm.
Brook: It was also, like, expensive and logistically hard at that time back in 2004. Um, but so I actually found emailing, it allowed me to be more thoughtful and deliberate about what I was saying and how I was responding and, um, to curate my thoughts and to not have to do it constantly.
And this was, you know, before social media. And so it was like, big emails, long, you know, like pretty, pretty long compared to what we do today. Um, but more contextual, right? And more story based about what I was seeing and experiencing with the people I was, I was messaging. And, and I found that that worked well for me.
But I do worry too about people like, I think with travel, it is like the epitome of the social media FOMO, of like, you see other people’s perfect vacation travel experiences, and you feel like, but my, I didn’t do that, or I didn’t have that experience, or I was itchy with 200 bug bites and sick to my stomach the whole time I was in X location, and it’s really easy to compare yourself to what you’re seeing.
And I’m like, again, it’s like, this is a curated story that someone is telling you most likely. They’re not showing you their 200 bug bites. So that’s just something I, particularly with people who haven’t traveled much, I just want to really reassure people. It’s like, please don’t get caught up in the spiral of looking at what other people’s perfect experience is.
Because most of the time, you know, with the, the, people I’ve worked with, it’s like, yeah, on the surface, on the public facing, they’re like, uh, yeah, it’s so great. I’m having a great time. And then I always get an email that was like, I think I’m failing. I think I’m doing it wrong. This can’t be what I’m supposed to be doing.
I have so much self-doubt. And usually I’d be like, OK, that you’re in the right headspace then. Like, you’ve reached the self-doubt point. You are questioning what you’re doing and why, and that means you’re in a deep learning experience right now.
Nikki: Yeah. Oh, that’s so sweet. Yes. I very much remember the self-doubt part of my, my experience too. Any other stories that you’d like to share that might be helpful for people if they’re planning their own trip?
Brook: Yeah. I’ll tell a story about my own experience. So my parents had seeded a love of travel in me, um, but we had traveled when I was nine. They had an opportunity. My grandfather died and left my dad like, a tiny bit of money and like we could have used that money in a lot of different ways. And my parents were like, we have always wanted to do a big adventure.
And my dad’s family is from Ireland. And, um, my dad was a biologist. My parents were like great outdoors people. And so they were like, we want to pull our kids out of school and we want to go to Ireland for a month. And we want to go to Kenya for a month. And this was in 1991. And so they did that with children.
And now I’m like, if I did that with my children, my parents would, like, lose their minds. But when I got the Bonderman, um, and I was going to travel in eastern southern Africa by myself, my parents were very nervous. And they were like, well, how can you do this alone? And I was like, but you’re the one who taught me to want to do this.
Nikki: Uh-huh. Wow.
Brook: And you seeded this in me. And, and you’ve taught me to, like, believe in myself and believe I can do this sort of thing. So I would expect you to support this trip and that expectation. And they did, they were like so wonderful and so supportive. But I do think as a strategy, I mean, mine was not deliberate.
It was more, like, outraged at my parents, like seeming hypocrisy to me, right? But I do think thinking about like, well, what are our, like, what are, what are our values? Like, if you’re talking to a partner, like what draws us together? Like, what do you, what makes you want to be in a partnership with me? Is it because, like, I want to do adventurous things?
Is it because I have this, you know, like turning back to sort of the things that connect you and thinking, um, like, you know, how can you support me? Um, how can I support your experience in your fears and help you not feel that way? And how can you be part of my team that’s going to help me make this a really good experience?
So in some ways bringing them in, right? Bringing them into that experience and having them be part of the support and also be reminded about the person that you are and what is your internal motivation for what you’re, what travel you’re going to do and why you want to have this experience.
Nikki: Amazing. Thank you so much. I feel like that’s a pretty, that’s a great place to end. It’s been great talking to you and I hope we talk again soon.
Brook: Great to talk to you too, Nicolle. Thank you so much.
Aislyn: And that was Nikki Galteland with Pamela Holt and Brook Kelly. In the show notes, I’ve linked to information about the Bonderman Travel Fellowship, as well as Pamela’s TV show, Me, Myself and the World.
Next week, we’ll be back with an in-depth look at off-the-grid, luxury travel at the Clayoquot Wilderness Lodge.
Jenn Flowers: I’ve heard that Clayoquot Wilderness Lodge offers the Imax version of these landscapes. You get to see them by air, land, and sea. As we climb higher in our seaplane, heading west toward Vancouver Island, urban areas give way to hillside forests.
Some forests are a multi-hued green. Others are made up of stubby trees that look like mowed grass from above, transected by brown logging roads. Then we begin to approach Clayoquot Lodge, and the peaks around us climb dramatically in height.
We’re whizzing by the stands of western red cedar, western hemlock, Sitka spruce, Douglas fir, and bigleaf maples. We’re so close to the trees that I’m almost convinced I can reach out and touch them. My heart is racing, and I can’t tell whether this is because of that epic view or the gusts of wind jostling the aircraft. On our final approach, I spot the lodge’s new solar field. A winding estuary hugging the property spills out into Clayoquot Sound. I can’t wait to see it all up close.
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This has been Unpacked, a production of AFAR Media. The podcast is produced by Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland. Music composition by Chris Colin.
And remember: The world is complicated. We’re here to help you unpack it.
