This week on Unpacked, host Aislyn Greene gets pro tips for how to immerse yourself in a new culture through language learning. Polyglot and language instructor Nöel Wolf shares ways to respond in awkward situations, tips for setting practical goals that lead to success and how she’s seen a little language knowledge go a long way with locals.
Transcript
Aislyn: I am Aislyn Greene, and this is Unpacked: the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel each week. And this week we are talking about languages and the guts and glory that go into learning them.
Last year a friend texted me a potential idea for the podcast. She said that she always tries to learn the language when she travels, but often gets shy about actually speaking that language when she’s in the place. I think that’s pretty common, but whether you relate to that or not, learning new languages isn’t the easiest thing. Yet, it’s so important if we really want to understand a place.
So I reached out to Babbel, a language learning app, and they connected me with Noël Wolf, one of their language teachers. She is a polyglot who was born in Germany but lives in Spain, and she speaks at least six languages—and as you’ll soon hear, that list is always growing. Noël shared her language journey, which is ongoing; she says the work never ends and she shared some fun, practical tips for learning a language and speaking it with confidence.
Welcome to Unpacked, Noël. It’s really nice to, to meet you and I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Will you tell me where you’re based?
Noël: Yes, I’m in Seville, in the south of Spain. I’m originally German though, but I live here.
Aislyn: Ah, OK. How long have you been in Spain?
Noël: Um, it’s getting close to nine years. So, very long.
Aislyn: OK. And are you fluent in Spanish?
Noël: Yes, yes. It’s, I would say after German, my second most fluent language.
Aislyn: How many languages do you speak in total?
Noël: That’s a good question, ’cause what does it mean to speak a language? Um, but, I would say four fluently and then two more that I’m currently getting to it.
Aislyn: Amazing. What are the two that you’re working on?
Noël: So I have some knowledge of Dutch. I do have it paused right now, but I had it in university and then I’m learning Brazilian Portuguese right now, actively.
Aislyn: Amazing. And have you always just had an ear for languages?
Noël: It’s really fun that you asked this because actually, so in school, um, I was always really good in mathematics. I even took like, in Germany, we take like a major in our last years of high school. I took biology, which is a totally different direction. I did always like cultures, traveling, and I did like languages.
I never thought I had a talent for it until I then went to university and everyone’s like, oh, you’re so good at languages. Like you should make your career out of it. And then this happened. Here I am.
Aislyn: And here you are, you’ve made a career. I mean, that’s, and that’s so impressive that you, so you speak four languages fluently and you’re still learning others. I mean, how do you, how do you go about that? And how do you not just have a big pile of soup in your brain all the time?
Noël: I do. So in Spanish we say “tengo cacao en mi cabeza,” which is like I have a chocolate milk stirred in my head, and this is how I feel, because like at work I speak English, and I speak Spanish in my free time, and then to my family I speak German, so I do have it. It never stops. But, um, yeah, I do try to separate it. So those separations really help, I guess.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Like, OK, I’m in a work setting. So English words, English words. Do you ever have a moment of crossover where you either can’t quite place a word or you hop into another language momentarily?
Noël: Yes, for sure. All the time. Um, there’s moments where I’m like, I wish I could just express this right now in my native language, or like even here. I’ve been here so long, but I’m like, you don’t even know how funny I am in my language. Like my humor is so different. Or even when I go to Germany, I like, I just think of the Spanish word.
Like, how is this? It’s my native language. I should know this. So for sure.
Aislyn: Interesting. Well, and what you’re saying about like the ability to express ourselves fully and, and especially humor like that, those are the things that I do find are more challenging when you’re trying to communicate in a language that’s not your native one, because it does feel like there’s a little bit of a, I don’t know, kind of something keeping you from fully being your Noël self.
Noël: Yes, for sure. I think it’s also one of the main struggles you have as an adult. ’Cause when you learn a language, you kind of, you just want to express yourself like you do in your native language, but you’re not able to. So you feel like a child almost. Like you just say like, I want this, give me this, you know? So you’re missing this.
But there’s also this approach of like, when you actually start speaking more fluently, that your character changes. And I think there’s some truth to it and it’s super interesting.
Aislyn: Really?
Noël: Yeah. So I’ve noticed myself that in Spanish, I’m much more open, which is obviously linked to the culture and everything. And also linguistically, it’s linked to it. And then in German, maybe I’m more correct and more like, you know, regulated.
Aislyn: Yeah. How do you feel when you’re speaking English? What part of you comes out?
Noël: It’s a good question. Um, I do think it’s my work self. So . . .
Aislyn: Ah, yeah.
Noël: I’m, I’m in a work mindset. Um, because I do not really speak English in my free time other than . . .
Aislyn: Got it.
Noël: . . . at work.
Aislyn: Yeah, that makes sense. Well, this episode that we’re, we’re diving into is all about building confidence around languages. And it came out of a question that somebody had around feeling very shy. You know, they might know the language a little bit, but then they go to this destination and they feel uncomfortable or they don’t want to be embarrassed.
They feel like they might sound like a child. So how did you build your confidence in each of these languages and how do you continue to do so?
Noël: Um, it’s, it’s a hard way. I’m not going to say it’s easy.
Aislyn: Right, yeah.
Noël: But I think, so one of the main things is just to realize that you’re doing a good job, whatever you’re doing. So a lot of times we are just, we just want to be perfect. And as I said, we want to directly speak like we do in our native language. And you just have to realize, OK, this is not going to happen.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: So really like celebrate also small successes. Don’t expect yourself to be like: OK, now I learned Spanish and I’m going to go to Spain and talk about politics in Spanish. No, it’s not going to happen. But if I was able to order a coffee in Spanish and not having to use a lot of English, that’s a success, celebrate it and be like: OK, I did a good job today. I did more than I did yesterday. So really celebrating those, those small progresses and also putting your goals in a realistic manner. Your goal cannot be—to be from one day to the other—to do native like things. But your goal can be like, today I want to go to the fruit shop and get my fruits in the native language.
And if that’s your goal, then that’s your goal. So celebrate it.
Aislyn: How do you handle it when someone, say like you are trying to order fruit in Spanish, and if they responded in English or another language, how would you, how do you?
Noël: I mean, there’s several ways to see this. Because I don’t think it should be seen as a critic to you. A lot of times what also happens is that the locals want to practice their English. So, you know, like if you go to Germany and you speak German to them, even if you speak perfectly, but they hear a little accent, they’re like, OK, this is my moment. I’m going to practice my English with them now. So it’s maybe not about you. It’s about them. So . . .
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: . . . look at that. And then also it’s this thing of like, they just want to help you. They’re not, usually, they’re not trying to criticize you. Like don’t, don’t take it so personal. They, they just, they see that maybe you’re struggling and they just want to be like, OK, I’m going to give her a hand. Maybe she didn’t know that I speak English. I’m just going to help her.
Aislyn: Yeah. Would you continue to try to speak, say, like German in those situations or would you switch over to English? There’s that dance of how do you find the best way to communicate in this moment?
Noël: I think actually the best way is to be straightforward and be like: Hey, um, I want to practice my Spanish. Do you mind if we keep speaking Spanish, or German, whichever language, right? Because the other person might not be, they might think that you’re using Spanish because you think that the other person doesn’t speak English, but it’s actually that you want to practice it.
So just be straightforward. Tell them, hey, I’m trying to practice this. Can you please help me out with this? And I’m, I’m sure they’re going to be open to it.
Aislyn: I think there’s also the other situation that can happen where you try something in a language and then you just get this like torrent of a language back and you, it’s too complex for you. You know, you can’t, you were so successful that you’ve now gotten yourself too deep into a conversation.
Do you have any advice for that?
Noël: That for sure has happened to me because especially if you learn like your standard phrases and you learn them and you practice them, and then maybe you speak them perfectly and they’re like, oh, she speaks perfect Spanish. I’m going to talk about whatever now. Um, I think you can definitely express it, like, maybe even in that language, like, hey, I didn’t know what you said. I’m still learning. I’m, I’m not fluent. And, and they will quickly, like, catch on and just maybe simplify the sentence.
Aislyn: Learn how to say, can you, can you slow down please?
Noël: I mean, usually one of the first sentences is, when I teach also in my class, is like, can you please repeat your sentence or can you speak slower? So for sure.
Aislyn: How do you, I want to kind of go deeper into some of the challenges that you’ve encountered, but how do you suggest that people do that transition from say they’re working with Babbel on, you know, mastering German, and then now they’re actually going to go to Germany and they’re going to try to put this into practice.
Do you have advice for that transition from classroom to real life?
Noël: Yeah, I mean the good thing about Babbel in this case is that we do teach real-life conversations. So it’s not just you learn how to conjugate a verb, and now it’s on you to just practice it. So it’s usually actually like conversations you’re practicing, especially in the live online classes, which is what I’m teaching. So they are pretty real life.
So the transition isn’t that big, I would say.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Noël: ’Cause we really focus on, like the topics usually are, how to do something in that language and not how to conjugate a verb in, in the past tense. Right? But then also other things you can do is you can practice, just practice a lot. You can immerse yourself.
You can even practice with yourself if you don’t have a partner. Let’s say you’re in the U.S. and you don’t know who to practice German with. Go to your mirror, speak to yourself, practice those sentences. And you gain confidence through that because then when you actually have to use them, you’ve already used that phrase so much that you’re more confident automatically.
Aislyn: The classes that you teach is, do you also include slang in part of that? Because I feel like sometimes you learn the very proper, like when I studied French, it was the very proper French and then you go and it’s like, wait, people are merging words and using slang and it’s not anything like the textbook.
Noël: Yes, for sure. Especially in the, in the live online classes. And we do have a focus on, like, what we actually use and the actual structures we use. Although it is important, of course, to have as a base, like the correct standard way to say it.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: But yes, for sure. We do focus on that. We also focus on regional differences, which are also very important because if you’re learning German, but you’re going to Switzerland. I don’t even understand Swiss German, so I don’t know how my learners will. So it’s definitely a focus on that as well.
Aislyn: Well, I would love to know what, kind of, challenges or struggles that you have run into when learning a new language and speaking it in the destination. Like maybe Portuguese, Brazilian Portuguese. I don’t know.
Noël: Yeah, I mean, I haven’t been to Brazil yet. It’s on my bucket list.
I do live close to Portugal though. That’s one of the points that’s complicated. We just talked about, like, regional differences. So I’m learning Brazilian Portuguese. I go to Portugal, it’s a whole different language basically. So of course. Um, but maybe more from a personal view, I definitely have struggled with like, having that confidence of actually using that language, which then through different methods, as we just talked about, I overcame. And then, of course, there are misunderstandings and they are not only language related, they’re culturally related also, and it’s just something we have to accept. We have to accept that we are, we’re making ourselves vulnerable, of course, when we are using a language that is not ours. And also when we’re in a culture that we are maybe not familiar with.
But, it’s OK to make mistakes. Um, people are going to understand, they’re going to appreciate it. Because when I’m in Germany and someone tries to speak German with me rather than using English directly, I highly appreciate it and I think everyone does. So it’s just accepting that making mistakes is part of this progress and that’s OK.
Aislyn: Yeah. You mentioned vulnerability and, one of my questions for you, was why do you think it’s so intimidating to do this, to speak a foreign language? Is that part of it because of that vulnerability?
Noël: Yes, for sure. I think that’s one of the main reasons, for sure. It means we’re stepping out of our comfort zone. My comfort zone is German, is my native language, is speaking to people from the same culture. So whenever we step out of the comfort zone, not even with languages only. Also, I don’t know, I’m trying a new sport as an adult.
It’s stepping out of my comfort zone. I’m vulnerable in this moment. I still struggle with it, like I, I wanted to learn, I wanted to go to a dance class and it took me like three weeks to go there because I’m like, I don’t know if I know how to dance, but I’m going to go, you know? And the same thing happens when we’re learning languages.
But there’s a lot of aspects that make it intimidating. Um, as I said, the fear of making mistakes, the fear of not being able to express yourself as you can in your native language. As I said, as an adult, I think it’s really hard because we want to say a lot of things and go deep into conversations and we’re not going to be able to. It’s just how it is. Um, you can feel some pressure also. You want to, like, perform right. And then I think it’s really intimidating also because a lot of times we compare ourselves to native speakers, even, or to other learners. And we shouldn’t do that. We are all on our own language-learning journey and we need to accept our own goals, our own speed.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah. Really like just focusing on what you want out of it or like you said, setting those really tiny goals. Do you think that, and I found that, you know, some people that I know are much more comfortable just flinging themselves out there, just trying even if they don’t know everything and some people get very shy and kind of more like: Oh, I don’t want to make a mistake.
For those people who are a little bit less comfortable flinging themselves in: What tips would you have for shyness specifically?
Noël: Um, I would definitely say prepare yourself as much as you can.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: So do your regular practice. Is it through an app? Is it through a teacher? Is it through, if you’re more of a textbook person, is it through a textbook?
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Noël: Prepare yourself because the more you are prepared, although of course you’re going to run into situations that you’re not prepared for, the more comfortable you are.
So this is a big thing, as I said, put your, make your goals achievable, celebrate your victories, even if they are small. So then you’re going to gain confidence step by step and go more out of yourself. Talk to yourself, be positive. Every step is a, is a step. And maybe even like seeking for environments that are supportive.
So if you’re still in your country and you’re about to travel to Brazil, for example, um, maybe find a language exchange partner, someone from Brazil who wants to learn English, if you’re an English native and you can exchange, so that person’s going through the same as you, just the other way around. You practice with them. So maybe you’re more comfortable in this one-on-one situation before going out there and diving into the real world.
Aislyn: What do you think the benefit is of learning other languages, of overcoming the obstacles and the scary parts?
Noël: So many. I mean, of course, for our health and everything, we know it’s good for our brain, et cetera. But I’m going to get away from that and go more into what we can actually see right away. Um, I think the number one is the cultural understanding. You’re not going to be able to immerse yourself in the culture the same way if you don’t speak the language at all, or not even try.
An example for me was when I moved here. So I didn’t speak any Spanish. I didn’t have Spanish in school. I spoke French, um, which is somehow similar. I signed up right away to a volleyball team to make friends. No one spoke English. So I started learning the language and I just tried, I was like repeating whatever they said.
I was saying that. And they appreciated it so much. They invited me to everything, even though I would not understand anything. But they saw the effort and this way I was able to like fully immerse in this culture here. I’m fully part of the culture. I even like, I know the guy from the corner who’s selling the fruits and everything.
And I understand the culture in a way that I would never, there’s no way you can understand a culture if you don’t speak the language. Um, so it really enriches you so much, speaking the language when traveling there. Um, and of course you build relationships also. There’s people you would never meet if you only speak one language, or if you only speak English. I would never have met my friend from volleyball, for example.
Aislyn: What a smart way to just dive right in. You know, you’re not taking a class, you’re playing volleyball in Spain. Yeah, I remember when I was living in France and I was doing a language immersion, and I signed up for it was kind of like a fitness class, and it was great because, you know, there were times where I was just looking around following other people because I didn’t understand what was being said. But it was such a fantastic way to just pick up language in this very casual, classroom-free environment, you know. Are there any other benefits that you see come out of people embracing language?
Noël: Oh, so maybe, yeah. Where do I start?
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: I mean, let’s talk about personal growth. It’s you, you just feel better. I mean, it’s a personal achievement if you step out of your comfort zone and you achieve something. Of course, let’s also talk about the professional opportunities that open up to you. I wouldn’t work where I’m working at if I didn’t speak languages. And I think nowadays in such a globalized world, it’s almost required to speak at least one other language or have some knowledge and not only language, but also culture. Because if we look at the business markets, in whatever fields, it always helps to know, of course, how does the culture work there?
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Noël: Um, and then traveling. Um, your travel experiences are going to be so different if you know the language or know at least some language. So I went, for example, last year in summer I went to Benin, which is in West Africa. And they speak French, but they also have their local language, which is called Fon. It’s a really small language.
Um, and I learned just basic sentences before. I speak French, so I could always, if not go back to French.
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Noël: So I just learned just like, “How are you?” “My name is.” “How much is this?” Typical, like 10 sentences. And the way they treated this, because most travelers, which is understandable, if it’s like such a small language, do not do this.
The way they treated me, was like I was part of their family right away. Because they appreciate it so much. They even invited me to everything. ’Cause they’re like, OK, this person is really interested in our culture. Let’s make the best experience for her. So your travel experience is going to change like 100 percent for sure.
Aislyn: I love that. How fun. What a great way to just connect with the people that you’re, you’re going there to see, right? That’s the whole point of traveling.
Noël: Yes. Yes.
Aislyn: Um, you touched on this a little bit, but what do you think it takes to succeed in mastering language?
Noël: Yeah, we touched a little bit. So, let’s go back to like achievable goals. Make your goals step by step, break them down to like subgoals, if it makes sense. So maybe your goal is: I want to be able to hold a conversation, right, in French. What does this need? So the first one is: I want to be able to present myself. I want to be able to talk about the weather. So, like, just break the goal down as small as you can and then work for each subgoal.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: And then you, once again, celebrate these small victories. And it automatically feels more like a fun game then if you just, like, go step by step. Right?
And of course, regular practice. And by regular practice, I don’t mean that you need to sit down every two days and have a workup list and study one hour and a half your workup list because that’s what we did in school, at least where I grew up.
Aislyn: Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Noël: Regular practice can be anything. Regular practice can be 10 minutes a day of using an app, for example. Maybe today, my practice is that I’m watching a reality show. And that’s what I’m doing right now. I’m watching Love Is Blind in Brazilian Portuguese.
Aislyn: Really? Oh my God. That’s amazing.
Noël: I’m relying on the subtitles still, but this is part of my language practice that day. I’m doing it. And it’s something I would maybe do anyways, but now I’m doing it in a foreign language.
Aislyn: Yes.
Noël: So really, like, incorporate it also in your day-to-day life. Don’t make it something too separate. Because let’s say you like music, right? You want to listen to music. Listen to music in your target language, even if you don’t understand it yet, but you get used to the sounds. So really make it part of your everyday life.
Um, maybe try a recipe, try a recipe in that language or from that country.
Aislyn: Yeah. Interesting.
Noël: And then this way you can really, like, immerse yourself in the language without feeling like: OK, I’m studying now. And we connect to studying, we associate negative feelings, and it doesn’t have to be like that. Other than that, just try to find every opportunity you can to practice the language, I would say: language exchange, online classes, um, can even be like, a pen pal, if that’s what you like.
Aislyn: Oh, nice. Yeah. Fun. Yeah. Watch Love Is Blind in your target language and get a pen pal. Um, how many languages would you like to speak? Like, do you have a goal?
Noël: Um, well, I practice my tip. My goals are small. Like, they are step by step. Right now my goal is to get more fluent in Brazilian Portuguese. And also not lose the other languages, which can be hard to, like, mix it up, especially when they’re similar. Right. Um, so I’m really focusing on that right now.
So actually I have a wedding next month. No, in six weeks, of one of my best friends, who is Brazilian, and I have to do a speech. Yes, he’s, um, marrying a Spaniard. So my goal is to have the intro and the outro of the speech in Brazilian Portuguese. Which, as I said, it’s a small goal, because it’s basically just, like, saying hello to everyone, welcoming everyone, and then basically saying goodbye to everyone, but that’s my goal.
Aislyn: Oh, your toast is going to be incredible. I can already tell.
Noël: I hope so. But that’s actually, like, a good point also, like make your goals also personal. Like it doesn’t have to be a general thing. If your goal is to do a wedding toast, then it’s a wedding toast.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: You know?
Aislyn: I mean, there’s nothing more inspiring than having to get up in front of a bunch of people you don’t know and say things. So that’s a very motivating goal.
Noël: Don’t remind me. Don’t remind me.
Aislyn: No, sorry. You’re going to be great.
Noël: Thanks.
Aislyn: Um, do you still set goals for yourself within, like, Spanish and English? Like languages that you use pretty frequently?
Noël: Yes. Um, of course the goals are much higher. So for English, it’s definitely becoming, like, it’s more about the confidence level, maybe. So those are very, very specific. So it’s, for example, in English, my last goal was, um, to talk about feminism in English and using, like, using terms with it.
So just educating myself more with terms that’s in this topic that I’m really interested in.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: So that was my little subgoal. So I do, they are, they are of course more advanced and they are less urgent maybe ’cause it’s more of my, out of my interest. I don’t need it ’cause I’m already fluent. But yeah.
Aislyn: Yeah. It’s more about advancing your, your interests, it sounds like, being able to converse about something like feminism. That’s very cool. Well, you are a very inspiring person. So, I bow down to your language fluency. Um, is there anything else that you would like to add that you think is important for people to think about as they’re broaching languages?
Noël: I mean, I, I’ve said it before, but don’t be afraid. Do it. Know that it’s going to be highly appreciated by everyone. And it’s OK to make mistakes. It’s OK to be vulnerable sometimes. And always kind of think about how you would react when someone is trying to speak your native language. I don’t think any of us adults would, or they definitely shouldn’t laugh at that person.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: So.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Noël: If you’re not doing it, the other people are not going to do it to you either. You know?
Aislyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Noël: Just be OK with, with your little steps, with your little successes and don’t, don’t worry too much.
Aislyn: Well, thank you so much, Noël. It’s been really a delight to chat with you.
Noël: Thank you so much. It was really, really nice.
Aislyn: And that was Noël Wolf.
So I’m learning a little bit of Japanese for an upcoming trip to Japan. And I decided to use her methods to set small goals. It’s made this big kind of overwhelming process feel much more doable. Especially because I only have four more weeks before I leave.
We’ve linked out to some of the content that she’s created in the show notes, as well as to Babbel. Next week, we’ll be back with an exploration of solo travel with Unpacked engineer/producer Nikki Galteland.
Ready for more unpacking? Visit afar.com, and be sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter. The magazine is @afarmedia. If you enjoyed today’s exploration, I hope you’ll come back for more great stories. Subscribing makes this easy! You can find Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. And be sure to rate and review the show. It helps other travelers find it. We also want to hear from you: Is there a travel dilemma, trend, or topic you’d like us to explore? Drop us a line at afar.com/feedback or email us at unpacked@afar.com.
This has been Unpacked, a production of AFAR Media. The podcast is produced by Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland. Music composition by Chris Colin.
And remember: The world is complicated. We’re here to help you unpack it.
